Sexton's power is in his ability to take defenders to the defensive line and put attacking players into space behind him
Crowley is the best attacking 10 (after Sexton) Ireland at the moment
The reason Sexton is so good is because the game is built around his strengths
We can't afford to have a team built around a specific player who won't be availabe for the main event
We either need another player to fill his shoes, or a backup strategy that suits another players' strengths
The problem with Carty is that he's not a very good outhalf who also happens to be unreliable from the tee
Man of the match 5 star poor performance by Crowley against Ulster, the team that most leinster fans say are better than Munster these days....
It's not his goal kicking
I was very pro Ross Bryne last season before the HC final. He really wilted that day in a way that surprised me. If Sexton is out, I still think Carty would suit the style Farrell wants to play the best. If the knock against him is his kicking game, then have Ringrose kick.
I think the 3 10's selected for the 6 nations will be: Carberry Crowley and Ross Byrne. With maybe Nathan Doak selected as a 4th 9/ development player.
Frawley is still on the long term injury list. Harry is being eased back into it.. Maybe sextons injury gives Harry a chance to get a few games for leinster.. but while he hopefully starts this weekend. You'd imagine Ross starts the 2 Champions cup games.
For me Ross is a decent 3rd choice outhalf option for ireland come the world cup. Maybe he's not going to light it and run one in from half way but he's very competent, plays and trains on a daily basis with 3/4 of the irish team and if there was a kick in the last minute to win a world cup final id have no fear of him nailing it..
Can't see carty or burns near it on current form.
In fairness its not one game. Ulster have been poor since the Leinster game.
The argument is over the top, but on form you would struggle to select anyone other than McCloskey.
The flip side to this is that Farrell will have seen plenty of RB at 10 since he took charge and has still only deigned to give him a handful of minutes.
Presumably, there’s a reason for that.
For all the disagreement, I think there’s a lot of agreement on what they both actually offer.
And I don’t think it’s that controversial to suggest Crowley suits Irelands style better than RB.
I'd imagine Harry Byrne will come back in ahead of Ross Byrne if he can stay fit.
I see the mistake I made
Let me fix it, if Sexton does not play he should be replaced by one of Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, frawley, O'brien, ringrose,
Crazy stuff, I thought we had all moved on from this
Yeah, overall this is how I feel about it.
If Sexton & Carbery were out, and Ireland had to beat any of: Scotland / Wales / Argentina / Japan / Italy etc tomorrow, then I'd be more confident in Ross Byrne to just get the job done in the kind of nuts and bolts way he can for Leinster a lot of the time.
If Ireland had to try and beat one of the southern hemisphere big three or England / France tomorrow then I'd think we've possibly got a better shot with the spark Jack Crowley could give us over Ross Byrne. (TBC - I don't think we could win in that scenario right now either, but I do think he can offer more in attack).
I have no problem with investing more time in Crowley now because I think his ceiling is a lot higher than Ross Byrne's.
I'm in no way arguing for RB to be in the Ireland team.
However, we have seen nothing from Crowley's recent outings at OH to suggest he really is the guy to get the backline moving either. He's looked better with ball in hand when he's playing 12 or 15, just like Carbery does, just like Frawley does, just like Madigan did... but that's not what we want from him.
Still, very small sample size and if he is named in the 6N squad, it will be an endorsement that Ireland think he's worth looking at again, and that's good enough for me.
And Ireland are never going to have the kind of dominance up front that Leinster enjoy week to week. Nor are they going to be facing as weak defences in the backline. My opinion is not based on his starts against England, I can't even remember them.
Carty is obviously not the answer either - we don't have anyone who is the answer. But its not Carty and its not Byrne because they both have to many limitations (even if the latter is better). This is why Frawley/Harry Byrne/Crowley have been invested in by Farrell.
Byrne has had two starts for ireland, both against a very dominant england.
we have had Jack Carty play plenty of times for ireland, who many consider as a gainline attacking 10, and we've seen that not work for many reasons including the "lack of control" reason.
for leinster, Byrne doesnt need to be that gainline attacking 10, all he needs to do is arrange the backline and pick the pass, which he does to a very high level.
Until we see Byrne start against a scotland / wales / italy, i think it is a bit premature to write off his international chances. For now, hes fighting against crowley for a bench spot due to sextons injury.
Of course he won't be as good. But they style of game we play relies on a credible threat from the 10 channel (or the 10 in a further out channel) and Byrne does not provide that. So speed and footwork are things we need from a 10 the way we play the game.
why are you comparing Ross Byrne to Johnny Sexton? thats a difference comparison completely, and no one here is suggesting Ross Byrne is as good as, or ever will be as good as, johnny sexton.
I’m not saying that’s all we need from an OH any more than you’re saying, say, RB’s cross-field kicking is all we need.
But it is a big point of difference between them.
And I think Crolwey suits Irelands attacking game plan more than RB. (I think RB would’ve suited Schmidt’s style better).
Sexton's speed and footwork and ability to threaten the line are 100% part of what makes him the player he is though, and Byrne categorically does not have that.
Of course it is.
But if speed and footwork was what we need from an OH, Carbery would be first choice for Ireland.
I'm optimistic about Crowley as an option for Ireland, but to be honest I was more optimistic before the game against Ulster and his 20 minutes at 10 against Leinster.
Ah look, he’s obviously going to have made some breaks at 10.
But the larger point is, if you’re asking who has the better footwork, is faster and threatens the line more regularly?
I think it’s Crowley.
The point being that if youre comparing outhalves, and point to a break that one player made, you need to accept that he didnt make that from the 10 channel but further outside. And the less said about that ulster non-defensive line the better.
is crowley a better open field runner that Bryne, yes absolutely. Is byrne capable of finding a hole to break through in a rush defense, absolutely yes he is.
Byrne played a couple of games last season at 12 outside of sexton and didnt look out of place. He certainly doesnt have a lightning break, like crowley does, but hes a very clever player who can see a hole develop in a line and can put a player through.
with sexton most likely out for a while now, and an ireland camp due in 4 weeks, i expect both players to be involved in the training squad... from there anything can happen.
for whats it worth, i really hope crowley does develop into a true test level 10 over the next few months, and give us an extra option, however i think gametime is running out.
https://youtu.be/SUAAhAl5j-I?t=3661
Ok, but I don’t see the point.
Equally, put Ross Byrne at 12 and he’s still not capable of making that break.
Not singularly, but an ability to threaten the line is large part of what our attacking play requires.
I'd be worried that this break will become an albatross around Crowley's neck. It wasn't anything to do with his ability as an outhalf and in fact he played pretty poorly at 10 against Ulster, but now if he isn't a test-level 10 very soon, people will be wondering when he's going to "replicate his early form". Also worth noting that at test level, I doubt the opposition forwards would be as disinterested in tackling him as the Ulster lads were.
I remember JJ Hanrahan scored a lovely try in the corner in the last minute to beat a French team (Perpignan?) - and everyone thought, this is the guy, the successor to ROG - but again, a lovely try in the corner had nothing to do with being a good OH, which JJH patently was not. Yet for ages, it kept coming up, remember that try, remember that try...
Crowley looks to be a very solid player and Farrell seems to see something in him, but perspective is needed.
In a game where the scrumhalf doesn't really pass the ball to the outhalf then it's hard for the outhalf to grab the game by the scruff of the neck. Iirc, JGP was below par that day too so that needs to be taken into consideration when analysing Crowley's performance and that of the back line.
Crowley made that break while playing at 12..... Healy was at 10
Argentina scored 20 unanswered points to start the game and were back up by 13 points at the 70 minute mark. We were within one score of Argentina for less than 30 minutes of the entire game, including the 10 minutes to start the game. We were done at the 13 minute point.
We had a far bigger result in 2011 beating a Tri Nations Champions Australia team who made the semis that year than anything Schmidt achieved in a WC. His best result was etching out a win while playing to the strengths of a lumbering limited physical French team (who had finished 4th in the 6 nations that year, got obliterated in the quarters and finished 5th in the 2016 6 nations) and subsequently leaving the game with 3 key injuries and a suspension.
He can't, nor ever will. But line breaks at 10 aren't what you look to your outhalf for either.
Yes and as mentioned - in my opinion our pack won that game, our back line were indecisive and disorganised.
A win against Australia in your first test at 10 is a great achievement, but the performance in terms of what you'd expect from an international 10 was sub par.
That's not a slight by the way, nor is it intended as such - you don't go more off the deep end in sport than Crowley did against Aus.
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