I'll see if I can find it again. It was what got me interested in them.
I can't see them getting planes anytime soon. The US refused to give them better missiles drones tanks and planes in the recent visit. One patriot instead. Giving them 50 year old tanks is the best they can do
Master stroke differentiating Ukrainians from Russians encouraging celebrating Christmas on 25th. Ukrainians "Silent Night"
Happy Christmas to all, especially herdquitter, our war correspondent, for this thread, sticking with it, keeping us all up-to-date.
Thanks should go to our patient and benevolent overlords, ah, mods for allowing this thread I think 👍
In fairness there was a lot of tractor porn early on in the thread. And plenty of fields fertilised with invading Russians… perfectly on topic 😅
Yes, that was the US stance up to the time that Putin started his indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets. That was a bridge too far , even for the Americans, and now their outlook has changed, as far as I can see. The Patriot was more symbolic than anything else ( that's not to say that it cannot do what it says on the tin, far from it.) and for sure it has really put the Ukrainian Fox into the Ruzzian henhouse judging by all the flapping going on in the Kremlin.
Apparently, there's still plenty of fertilization going on. Going to be bumper crops in 2023.
putrid still wants negotiations, tells me all I need to know. Keep kicking him in the 🏐🏐's
How the mighty have fallen!!! There's a definite air of desperation creeping into Putins conversations, for sure !!! Yeah, keep kicking him (and his cronies) but make sure that you have some hi-grade farmyard cleaner for your boots ( they're better) or shoes. ( steel toe cap ) is recommended.
If I were the Ukrainian govt there would be no negotiation, not even if Putin f****d off all the way back to Russia. They need to be left in no doubt that they can't afford to attempt anything like this again.
Even go so far as after kicking the Russians out of Ukraine, they chase them 10 or 20 Klms (or more !!! ) into Russia, and create a buffer zone.
As an Irishman I do find that sentiment amusing.
Remembering how we signed over a significant part of our country to reach a peace deal with our invaders.
We had the guts but not the means to defeat the British empire, while they were already occupying us.
That was then , this is now
They sure did 😂
Now if it had been the same type invasion that Ukraine suffered, and we had the same support that Ukraine has now,...would be a completely different story.
You forget that 60-70% of the population of that part of the country at that time wanted to remain with Britain.
Even now with a so called majority nationalist population 50% want to remain in the UK.
Can't the same be said for the Russian occupied regions in Eastern Ukraine?
A significant portion of those citizens are pro Russain
Actually not really. Polls in 2014 showed that a significant portion did want more federal independence from Kyiv, but only a minority wanted to be part of Russia. Putin then made the decision for them.
We need more internet hard men on their laptops and phones, Putin would be shaking in his socks.
Commentators said Russia and Putin was finished months ago when we were laughing at tractors pluckily pulling tanks away, and whaddya know, Putin's still here, he hasn't gone away.
This will drag on and on for months, years perhaps.
Even if you pound a nation in war and leave it broken and humiliated, it's not necessarily a good thing. The prequel to WW2 ended a lot like that.
What the victors of WW2 learned from WW1 was that the vanquished country should never be left to their own devices again and let thoughts ferment and forces be built up again.
Hence Germany post WW2 being taken over by four administrations only properly finishing with the fall of the Berlin wall.
Putin has been using Hitler's pre WW2 tactics and actions as a template to follow. Seemingly he's a fan boy. Only he thinks he won't end up with Russia itself breaking/being broken up.
Why would Ukraine negotiate, think about it before throwing stupid, cheap hard man jibes. Why would Ukraine negotiate unless all of the pre 2014 territory is returned? What has Putin to offer Ukraine that they think they won't win back anyway?
Internet commentators say everything, a lot of it is wishful thinking. Of course Putin is still here, he's spent 20 years consolidating power, killing people and killing/poisoning/imprisoning opposition, he has no real competitors back home for a reason, it's unlikely he's going anywhere.
Indeed it could drag on for many years, we don't know.
For your last point, what's your solution?
Some things dont have a quick and easy solution. It's not a movie where good guys win and everything is tied up with a neat bow at the end.
Right now it's a on again off again war of attrition, no one outright winning or losing.
Either Ukraine negotiates and lops of a bit of itself (very unlikely), or
The west steps in, and its basically a gloves off west vs russia (not a great outcome for anyone, plus the west quite rightly doesnt want this to escalate and spill outside of the region)
Or russians get tired of Putin and get rid of him. (Dont see this happening anytime soon, despite western propaganda). This may or may not be a good outcome. Dont forget there are a lot of right wing pro war nutjobs who would love to get in there and maybe make putin look like a pussy in comparison.
Short of a wildcard, wait for Putin to either step down or die of natural causes. What hasn't worked is making russia a pariah state and creeping sanctions. Regular Russians have had to mend and make do for years, it might irritate millennials that they cant buy a new gaming console but they're not going to overthrow a regime over that. Even crappy homemade missiles can still kill lots of people and it's not like putin cares much for his own people he sends in as cannon fodder.
Exactly. No one knows how it's going to turn out. It's highly complex, dynamic, fluid. It could go on for a decade or not. We don't know. All we know is that for now we are (quite rightly) supporting Ukraine, and they are not only holding on but have actually made some progress. We aren't all freezing to death. We are somehow managing to transition away from Ru energy. The EU bloc is still largely in line.
Ukr are gradually destroying Russia's military machine (and chipping away at the ru military's will to fight), the sanctions are reducing the ru ability to replace many military stocks and weapons, they are also somewhat damaging the ru economy which means less surplus to spend on the war machine, and our stance on rejecting Russia energy and weaning ourselves off it is reducing income for Putin's war machine. Again, anything could change, but so far it's going relatively "okay" for Ukr and Europe (it could have been much worse). The final outcome, as always, is unknown.
😄😄
You can see russias point in fairness 😄
And if only the US would stop supporting some country that can't be named, russia could stop retreating and win the war. So unkind.
I ca’nt even condur up even a draft statement in reply to this input even though I have an up to date Oxford Dictionary here beside me
"Karl"'s predictions for ze future, seem reasonable. Ukr played defense brilliantly earlier in the year, now we're seeing familiar town names cropping up again. ruSSia has lost more than half the territory it has occupied since the beginning of this phase of the war (feb).
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