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Hub Controller options

mike_2009

Got an email from hubcontrols sales - moving to subscription from next year. Can either pay or return but they don't elaborate on options. Assume app dead from January so can't set/change the schedule, just manually turn on and off. The LCD controller doesn't let you edit the schedule. If I return it who pays for that and what then? No mention of costs / refunds etc. The trial was taxpayer funded but I'm selling the house so just looking for options. Replace with a old style analog timeclock I guess? If I can find the original.

Bit disappointed but what can you do? Any advice on options appreciated. Would like to leave working boiler controls for new owner! Thanks.

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scholes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947734#Comment_119947734

Yes sorry forgot to mention the existing one was just a timer device with no thermostat

mike_2009

My Hub Controllers was under the boiler too - funny how others set it to 28oC for exactly the same reason I did! Didn't even know it could be located elsewhere and should have been! It just added app access with no other benefit really (and no supposed savings at all as a result) and now this subscription headache! Ah, well learned more this week about boiler controllers so all good!!

Interestingly Tado is saying my average home temp is 14.5o and other homes in the region are 18.9o. Would everyone turn their heating down please, you're making me look bad!!

deezell

Him: (standing up) 'Time for the pub, put on your coat'.

Her: ' Oh lovely, you're bringing me out!'.

Him: 'No, I'm turning off the heat'.

fitzparker

Fair play Deezell, you probably answered most questions but if you can directly answer mine it would be great as im not very DIY.

We had an old electric timer in the kitchen, a boost button for an hour mostly used, and hot water always flicked off (never use hot water (maybe twice a year) as we have an electric shower, kettle for sink) the temp was then controlled by a dial in the hall. The heating goes on which heats the whole house (as long as the radiators were on)

Got hub controller, again 99% press boost (probably use the app 5 times in 12 months to turn it on if we are out of the house) the dial is still in the hall (not sure if needed after hub was installed?) and now when Hub turned on the hot water comes on with it (installer told us we need to turn the hot water off in hot press as to not make it turn on ( but reluctant to mess with that

with that info can you help advise

Surely my grant paid for the controller itself, I presume they don't have a right to take it from us. Will it still work on the wall? , the only "service" they provide is the app right? so presume they will just disconnect the app right? is there any type of app that can work in its place?
- what would be the cheapest enough alternative (preferably one that has a separate button for hot water?
is the temp stat in the hall needed if you adjust the temp on the app (i.e temp on wall is at 30, in app says 17 to turn off at 22)

mike_2009

I haven't heard of an alternative to anyone's heating app. Some developers do talk to the backend but if that's frozen for you it may not work. The big reason I switched is the lack of schedule access/changes. the LCD panel lets you turn on/off/boost/holiday mode but that's it. Could work but it's worse than the old analog timeclock that was there before. I like to set and forget and prefer a schedule and shiver until it kicks in!

Assume there's a valve to disconnect hot water if you wish in the hot press or is that for Rads, so you're hot water only? That would make more sense in the summer. That's what I have.

My take is you as the taxpayer own the device. If you send it back you're relinquishing your rights to it and offering them to refurbish and resell I would assume rather than heading to the electronics recycling bin. They can't enter your property without permission and it would hit the headlines if they tried! They are just changing the terms and conditions to fit a new business model and see how they do. Up to you if you return. I did register my intention to return from the link in their email, heard nothing back. It's on my todo list along with some out of date jaffa cakes to include with it.....

I tried emailing them to get the answers to a few questions - they replied with a copy/paste of the same information they had already sent me! That's when I decided to exercise my freedom of choice!

I think the Tado starter from Screwfix works with hot water from what a previous poster said but check if you have an electronic valve in the hot press or a manual lever/red knob for turning the hot water on / off if that makes sense. Either way I think it's the best options I've seen so far, or one of them at least.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119948014#Comment_119948014

Another fine mess Hub got you into. You had the facility (rarely used) to heat your HW only, almost certainly by turning down the CH stat in the hall, (which closed a CH valve or switched off the CH circulation pump), and then just operating the timer next to the boiler. Now it's both or neither as far as I can deduce. They didn't even put the hub in the correct location, which was in place of your old stat, and with some wiring adjustments to maintain your independent hot water. Did your old timer have two zones and boost buttons, a HW and a CH? Such Hub installations required the old timer to remain for HW control, it's in their installer's manual ffs, turn on the old CH timer on permanently, and insert the new Hub in place of the wall stat, but there are a number of variants to this which were obviously past the pay grades of the dunces doing the install. To answer your questions,

1. Ignore their email, see what happens

2. Tado wireless black edition, or Hive mini for standard boilers and HW.

3. They just turned the wall stat up full to carry the live from the Hub C through it and on to the valve or pump it operates, instead of removing it and putting the Hub there. I can't say for sure without a good few images of your pipes, boiler hot press plumbing, what type of zone system you have, pumped, valved, gravity HW etc.

You'll need someone with reasonable knowledge of how your current system is wired, and was previously wired, to establish the best way to connect a new Tado two zone controller. For now you could just substitute the Tado receiver for the Hub C. (where did they put your Hub? Let me guess. Next to the boiler?)

fitzparker

Thanks all,

I presume if HC is set up to an account they can't log into the physical hub controller box and have it disconnected remotely can they?

Sorry probably should have mentioned,

its oil central heating, so boiler is outside
Hot water tank is Red twist valve in hot press upstairs
the rads id just turn up and down per rad in the room (the hub just turns CH/HW on or off throughout the house)

So yes

Old timer in the kitchen had a CH switch, a HW switch and a boost button ( temp was then controlled in the hall manual twist dial)

Hub C replacement in same spot in kitchen has a boost button (for both CH and HW (was told if I didn't want to heat hot water to turn the red valve in hot press)

Basically what I am after (although the hot Water is a bit of an annoyance going on with CH ( I didnt bother turning valve off in hot press)

Keep hub controller until it breaks where I can just use the boost button (presume App will be disconnected)
Replace hub controller to modern version to what I had just (HW button/CH button/boost) but equally accessible by an App

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119948078#Comment_119948078

I suppose the key question is whether they can disable the app or the service in some way remotely? Can they switch off their back-end service, or block individual devices, I wonder. I've had to pair the bluetooth and add new phone users a few times, so maybe they could block that?

Aquos76

@deezell Ive another question if you dont mind, on the back of reading through this thread I am after ordering a tado from Screwfix also, however I will be replacing a climote device, the main reason for me doing this is because you cant select timer events and different temps for each event with the climote. Anyway, my climote was originally fitted beside the boiler in place of the old timer switch, then then disabled the build in thermostat and gave me a wireless thermostat which I mounted between hall and landing, we only have a single zone system.

My question to you now is, i plan on installing the wireless thermostat in same location as my current stat, is there a stat built into the receiver also, then if so, I will have the same issue that those with the hub controller have.

This is the current wiring of the rear of the climote, from your previous posts, it will be an almost like for like replacement with the tado i reckon.

mike_2009

The only temperature on my app is the one from the wireless temperature sensor, doesn't appear to be any on the controller at all.....As my living room is a the coldest room in the house, I've no problem with setting the temp as it never reaches it!!

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119949912#Comment_119949912

No, the Tado receiver does not have an internal temperature sensor as @mike_2009 says above. Mike is talking about his new Tado, not Hub C,to avoid confusion.

Yes, your Climote is only switching a single CH zone, so the wiring is similar. N, L, a live link to CH Com, then the wire that goes to terminal 3, 5th from left on the Climote base, now goes to CH NO on the Tado receiver.

Your Climote has been used as a junction box for L and N, as there are an additional pair of Brown and Blue wires tied in, so these will have to kept connected, they may be power to the boiler. Label the CH switched live to the boiler from terminal 3 on the Climote so you won't get it mixed up with the other two live brown wires and the jumper, which go to Tado L and CH COM.

Aquos76

Just finished installing it there now, was fairly straightforward, just playing around with the app now. Interface is decent and I like the way i can copy and past the different days also. Definitely a big upgrade on the climote and for €120 too, its a steal. Thanks for all the info you posted in this thread, without seeing this I'd never of know about the tado system.

deezell

Haha, you don't hang around. Tado also supports smart radiator TRVs, which are linked to that stat and receiver, so individual rooms can open and close their own stat and call the boiler through the receiver. Really useful for turning off rooms during the day such as bedrooms, spare rooms, etc. They were 4 for €200 during black Friday, but they appear on offer regularly.

ateuptatscon

Hi guys, great thread. I'm looking to replace the hub controller also but not sure what the difference is between the Tado wired and wireless units. Does the Tado receiver need to be plugged into a mains socket?

I have 3 wires going into the hub controller which then go into a relay and then on to the boiler. Is the Tado receiver a straight swap for these wires or do I need to go wiring up to the boiler? Don't think I would be comfortable going near the actual boiler and would just get an electrician if it came to that.

My question is what could I get to just replace the hub controller straight up, as in something that will just connect up to the 3 existing wires and that's it. It's a single zone system with a standard system boiler. I'm just looking for something that I can remotely turn on and off the heating and set a scedule via an app.

Thanks a mill.

[Deleted User]

SEAI are washing their hands of the thing. Strange that they refer you to the energy supplier, who had nothing to do with the thing at the time, and has probably changed a couple of times since then.

Under the energy efficiency obligation scheme (EEOS) , obligated parties (energy suppliers) can claim energy credits for supporting the installation of energy efficiency measures, including heating system controls.

In exchange for being able to claim the energy savings from the installed measure against their target, the obligated parties provide support to the homeowner. This is usually in the form of a discount off the energy efficiency measure installation cost or as a credit on their utility bill.

The Hub Controller manufacturer did carry out a trial to determine the level of energy savings that could be delivered by their product. This was supported by the obligated parties and SEAI did not provide funding.

SEAI’s role was to determine, from analysis of the trial, the amount of energy credits (savings) that an obligated party could claim for supporting the installation of the controller.

This query is unfortunately outside of SEAI's remit and we therefore recommend you contact your energy supplier.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962809#Comment_119962809

Tado wired will go straight on in place, it will just use two wires as it's battery powered. Netatmo wired also, not as popular. Heatmiser also, seperate gateway required for Internet access, but not particularly smart or versatile. Any other cheap mains powered wired wifi stat also, many different ones on amazon, Aliexpess etc, usually a generic app to go with these. Tuya and other brands for little money.

The Tado wireless was recommended in the thread because it was such good value, and Tado has probably the most comprehensive set of features. The Tado receiver will wire directly in place of the mains powered Hub controller, two of the three wires are Live and Neutral to power the receiver, aka the extension kit. The accompanying wireless wall stat can then be positioned optimally, or placed on the little stand accessory making it portable.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962848#Comment_119962848

"SEAI’s role was to determine, from analysis of the trial, the amount of energy credits (savings) that an obligated party could claim..."

...And they fupped up royally. They obviously accepted verbatim the fantasy figures scribbled on the back of the brown envelope. No scientific or engineering analysis, just a group of smug c**ts in suits dispersing well intended EU funds into a dogs dinner.

ateuptatscon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962888#Comment_119962888

Fair play for the reply, thank you. Just one more question, for the Tado wireless reciever, is it just a case of connecting up the live, neutral and V1 wires or is there another wire that has to go to the boiler? Cheers.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963124#Comment_119963124

Those three and a link from Live to CH COM, as the relays are volt free, and Live is not internally connected to either relay COM.

If you don't want this receiver sitting on the wall you would need to go to the other end of the V1 cable, which you say goes to a relay (zone valve relay?, or heating relay box?), and you could install it at this point. I'd assume Live and Neutral would be available at this location.

ateuptatscon

Ah okay I understand now. Thanks for the info, very helpful.

crazydude

Hi Guys

So my system never had a thermostat just a time clock in kitchen. I got a Hub Controller as it gave me a stat allowing me some control. But as others said I have no intension of paying a monthly fee.

So I had a look at my system and a good read of all the posts above with a view to upgrading.

I have oil boiler and I have a mixture of thermostatic valves and ordinary valves in house. I also have an immersion with motorised valve in airing cupboard I assume allows the hot water in tank to heat separately.

So I have a few questions on the smart systems like Tado I would appreciate if someone (deezill? :) ) could answer.

If I put in TRVs am I right that they can be fitted to the existing thermostatic valves without the need to drain system? However for rads with ordinary valves I need to drain, fit thermostatic valves then TRVs on top?
TRVs act as a "Room Stat" allowing each Room to be "zoned"... Correct?
If I fit TRVs to all rads what is the purpose of the wireless thermostat then? It is not just duplication?

Thanks for reading

deezell

1. Yes

2. Yes, but see 3.

3. Smart TRVs on their own can't connect to the boiler to call for heat. There needs to be at least a receiver relay or a wired main stat to do this on their behalf. Generally, if this is in the hall or kitchen, it's co-located radiators would not have a TRV. Other rooms or zones whose TRVs open for heat will call the boiler by using the main stat as a relay. The calling TRV room and all open rads will also heat during this event. If you only have partial smart TRV install, it's real benefit is in closing off unwanted zones at specific times. If you wish to close off heating in the main stat location while allowing it to close its relay to fire the boiler for TRV calls, you can fit a TRV in the main stat location and slave it to the main stat, using it's zone schedule and temperature sensor. The TRV in this instance is just a motorised valve. A call from another TRV will operate the main stat relay to fire the boiler, but will not open the slaved TRV, thus not heating the main stat location until its own zone schedule activates it.

crazydude

Thanks for reply, sorry I have a few more questions...

So in my instance my Hub controller is in the Kitchen so this is where I connect my receiver but as the kitchen is not ideal for the stat I was going to locate this in my (large) living room. Here I have 3 rads with 3 thermostatic valves. So I should maybe open them fully and let the stat control room temperature?

Then in bedrooms hall, landings etc. (upgrade if required) fit TRVs and programme them as zones.

Also I forgot to ask, can I control the immersion also? and then I buy the "Heating and Hot Water" Tado? If so how do I get this to control tank temp? as I said I have a stat and motorised valve in airing cupboard already.

and finally when all this is done and programmed I power up boiler and let system take over turning on and off heating? Now we usually use the boost control on the Hub (sometimes timer) and keep boiler turned off at all other times.

deezell

Yes, you connect the receiver in place of the Hub. This could be the receiver of any of the smart Stat systems which have TRV options, Tado, Hive, Drayton Wiser and others.

Did you have seperate HW control on your previous timer before Hub was installed, was it a two zone timer. If so, and you no longer have seperate timer control of HW, how do you currently heat HW. Does it heat from the oil boiler when CH is on?

crazydude

No I did not and single zone timer just switching on boiler.

I heat from boiler when CH is on or in summer I switch on immersion

deezell

You'll need to determine what that motorised valve does in the hot press. Its more likely that its used to close off the CH when its not active rather than to isolate the flow to the HW tank. You'll also need to see if is controlled by any source, as in, where does the brown live wire to it go. Is the motorised valve relay (grey and orange wires) connected to any circuit. Does the valve open and close during CH, or is it latched open. Only then can you determine if it is in fact there to close CH flow, allowing a separate call to the boiler from a HW relay in the receiver to heat HW only from the oil boiler.

Its unlikely that there are additional wires in the wall under the Hub that may have been there to allow independent switching of HW, you could take a look though. If you site the receiver here, it might make it difficult to access the HW relay terminals in the receiver when you try to connect up to the zone valve. Take a few images of this valve, and the pipework around it, any boxes where it's cable goes, the wiring behind the Hub. It might help to make sense of your setup.

crazydude

will do... I do know there are no additional wires around hub... it is a simple L/N supply and Switch Wire

From memory the valve is fed from a supply that comes from immersion supply and controlled by stat a strapped to copper tank. But I'll get some images later when home.

crazydude

Here we go 😉

deezell

The Valve is on the hot flow inlet of the cylinder, it's there to zone the HW in some manner. It's currently activated as the pilot light is lit. The cylinder stat is turned up full, which means the valve is always open. You've said the live into the cylinder thermostat is tapped off the electric immersion live. You haven't looked to see if the relay wires from the valve cable, grey and orange, are supplied with live or connected to any other cables. Is there a small junction box present where all the cables converge? This looks like half of an S plan two zoned valved system, but in that case there should be another zone valve on the CH circuit. I can only think if one reaon for a valve only on the HW flow in, and that might be to prevent loss of HW to the CH by gravity,if the cylinder is below upstairs radiators, as when the boiler is off, the HW cylinders will act as a gravity feed to radiators above it if the cylinder flow and return are tapped off the risers from the boiler to the upstairs rads. You definitely don't want this to happen if you're heating HW by the electric immersion element. Is the house two story, and if so is the cylinder downstairs?

Btw, when you refer to 'controlling the immersion' in your post, I'm not sure if you're referring to heating the HW cylinder from the boiler, or by the electric immersion element in the cylinder. Sometimes the HW cylinder is referred to generically as ' the immersion'.

Also operate the cylinder stat. Turn it down and see does this close the valve and turn off the pilot light. This could be used to prevent the cylinder overheating in the event the hot flow being at a substantially higher temperature than required. This is only likely to occur if all the radiators are off, but the boiler is called by the old timer/ new Hub. Whatever was intended, it's unconventional. If the relay on the valve was used to call the boiler, and if the CH also had a valve in it's flow, operated by the hub with its relay output combining with the cylinder valve relay output to the boiler, then you would have a classic S plan with 2 independent zones, HW called by the cylinder stat and CH by the Hub C. Instead it looks a like a 1.5 zone system, which consusts of one valve only on the CH, usually controlled by a walk stat, with the boiler fired by a timer, giving you both CH+HW, or HW only when the stat is turned down. What you have is an odd reverse of this, and in its current form it does not facilitate heating HW only from the boiler, unless there is some way stop the hot flow to the CH circuit while the boiler is firing.

Also check for certain that the valve remains open and lit regardless of whither the CH is on or off, and regardless of whether the electric immersion is on or off.

crazydude

OK just managed to talk to plumber that installed the valve and he explained it

My house is an old house with a single circuit system doing upstairs, downstairs and hotwater.

What the valve is for is when the copper cylinder water reaches 65 degrees (my stat was set to wrong temperature and must of got moved so fixed that now) it shuts the valve stopping the CH heating the hot water further until temp in cylinder drops again.

Anyway so it answers my question and I just require a heating only controller.

Thanks so much for having the patience to answer my questions and taking the time to do so.