Pointless? - it could save Ukrainian lives & infrastructure
There's only one possible downside and that's probably unlikely
The sickening part of that video is Russians going about their daily life, with glazed and undamaged apartment blocks in the background. Compare that to the havoc and destruction their government is causing to their innocent Ukrainian neighbours property and infrastructure.
I don't know what the answer is, but the world need to come together and act quickly and decisively to bring an end to the madness.
Totally, many of them are "moral zombies" and only care because their excuse for a nation looks stupid on the world stage, not because of the torment being visited upon Ukraine.
Take the chance of the possible "downside" out of it.
They have the tools with 100% success rate as evidenced, give them more. Give them better.
It's going happen anyway like said, no point drawing it out.
You called NATO involvement "pointless" and you think that "removing a possible downside" makes it more pointless ????
They cant even deal with the Ukrainians. Imagine chucking in the SEAL's, Army Rangers, SAS, SBS the likes of those would mincemeat the russians.
Per the WaPO:
After weeks of savaging Ukrainian cities with Iranian-made drones, Moscow has quietly reached an agreement with Tehran to begin manufacturing hundreds of unmanned weaponized aircraft on Russian soil, according to new intelligence seen by U.S. and other Western security agencies.
The downside is the escalation that could result in various terrible scenarios, from a full mobilisation in Russia to all out Nuclear war.
Why would you bother taking the risk, when all you have to do is properly equip the massive motivated army that will do the job anyway.
Absolutely pointless at this stage for NATO to get involved militarily and probably massively counter productive.
Russia is being isolated further and well on their to being ran out of the country, with quite possibly the collapse of the Kremlin following, with potentially countries soon after.
I assume that NATO/ Ukr know exactly where all/most of the Bombs/missiles are being launche d from. Would it make logical/technical political sense for Ukr to inform Russia that any missile launched from Russian soil as on and from 01/01/2023 that that spot and ,say, one kilometre radius around that spots will be immediately targeted with a view to knocking out that launcher. And, we , the Ukr army, will send you the information /photos to you ,The Ru, to prove that you, the Ru , did fire it.
Our reason for the retaliation is that we think that it is not right and very unfair of you to be hurting our private citizens , depriving them of water , heat, transport, etc.
you know where we are if you want to fight us
And feel free to contact us if you think our above action re retaliation is not justified and we will consider any suggestions made.
In my book "pointless" means "no compelling reason or advantage"
How about "worth the risk" ?
Nato are content giving arms and training to Ukraine, can't honestly see them wanting their troops on the ground. It would then be a war of Nato vs Russia. Russia wouldn't stand a chance in military terms. It would be a big risk with a madman with his finger on the button. America wants a weak Russia not a defeated Russia. Last thing Nato wants is Eastern Russia to fall to China. That would scare the **** out of Nato.
What about ‘suspending ‘ the NATO membership , as least , of Turkey and Hungary until the UKR issue is resolved. And their return to NATO will depend on how they behave in the meantime.
"no compelling reason or advantage"
Exactly, like I explained. 👍️
I just do not know how this is going to end Putin still has support from fellow tyrants and even if his army are driven out he can keep going and almost destroy Ukraine from a distance .No way will he stop and accept a deal and then drop all his ambitions.Russia is well used to hardship and long drawn out conflicts not sure a lot of euro countries are especially when the people feel it in the pocket .
Turkey have a role here
No one is suggesting that NATO & allies should put boots on the ground at the moment. But that they could provide an aerial defensive role in terms of implementing a no fly zone.
Turkey has the second biggest army in europe and probably from its location the second most important member of Nato, Turkey does have some Influence with russia were most other members don't. Can not aturkey being asked to leave Nato, Hungary maybe.
Would agree with you I think. Unfortunately, doesn't look (to me?) like the will is there to give the Ukrainians all the tools they need to push Russia back at a faster rate either.
Either cowardice/fear or indecision seems to be a blocker (IMO). The Western support seems to be calibrated to containing damage Russia can do & protecting Ukraine as much as possible without provoking Putin too much (e.g. if Ukraine successfully attacks across the border with Russia more often/more effectively, or into Crimea with new capabilities) or risking the Russian regime collapsing in chaos due to a complete rout in Ukraine.
This is a dangerously unstable situation that could be shifted by Russia wising up/improving in how they wage the war over time or getting more outside support.
I suppose I worry the strong support from fellow scumbags in Iran is possibly a harbinger and the longer this drags on + Russia is still doing poorly but carrying on fighting (and bombing Ukraine) some others that hate the US/Europe/West may get up courage to crawl out of the woodwork to give them a boost. That obviously will not be good for Ukraine or its people.
It is risky of course to go further in arming Ukraine, and send even more weapons that give them new capabilities to attack Russia's military, but I think trying to carefully judge and calibrate the support also may have some risks as well.
You've confused yourself, you didn't explain "pointless", you attributed the description (wrongly) to a situation.
To make my point easier to understand, I'll pose the following question -
Do you think the Ukrainians would consider direct NATO involvement pointless ?
Thought not !!!
I think the trouble is there is no mechanism for removing or suspending a NATO member and the EU are morally gutless.
The Russian military bots are being turned on major these past few days. Even our own Mick Wallace with his tweets.
They've been told the winter has set in and both sides will be just dug in trying to keep warm instead of attacking. The propaganda war online will now be kicked off big time. You can see it on other forums where unnamed users or those with fake Irish names are posting pro Russian spiel. I even saw one with an obviously stupid Irish username of a clip of a Wagner group on tiktok in an armoured troop carrier with an Irish jig played over the footage. I bet this probably was posted for every European country with their associated usernames and regional music included.
The talks for peace will grow louder from these groups. And it's not from concern for fellow man. But purely they want those responsible to get away with it. And getting away with it at the moment means Putin has achieved his goal of Nova Russia. The longer this goes on and next spring and year comes and fighting resumes means there's less chance of Nova Russia occurring and Putin being able to witness it.
But until then it's peace, peace, whilst missilling Ukraine from Russia itself and hoping Ukraine will have lost support from the European and US online population to somehow influence up the ladder. Going to be a long winter but longer for those in ukraine.
Tis painfully slow though. Nato should really be involved by now. Putin still getting away with it. Any right thinking individual or company should ostracise all Russian companies or individuals for at least the next generation over this.
Personally think Russia should be blown to high heaven over this but seemingly that's not going to happen. The best thing for Russia atm is everyone forgets the past year and goes back trading with the country. But then that makes one on a par with the rashist forces. And going by the online propaganda campaign in this country they're using the neutral card and refugee card. And some are falling for these fake Russian Irish accounts.
...long winter ahead....
Poland alone would have the entire Russian Army beaten in weeks.
The Ukrainian forces are beating the tar out of them and they is only moderate support from primarily US and Britain, in terms of those countries respective Military budgets, it's tiny.
The global concern is not a war between Russia and NATO, that's so one sided that most NATO dead would be accidental than combat casualties.
It's that Russia will not be able to keep it's structure with its now depleted and humiliated army and will become an arc of conflict from Europe to the far East. It would be this crisis at a massive magnitude.
Ukraine won't benefit from a collapsed Russia, no one will.
Nothing pointless about NATO airpower. Just sticking to the south and not engaging anything in Russia would be a huge help and would save many Ukrainian lives.
Zelensky in his address to Irish universities yesterday spoke about the info war on social media and how Russian has been grooming useful idiots throughout the world for years with misinformation and lies - there's an endless amount of cranks, conspiracy theorists, social misfits etc willing to lap this stuff up.
He also made the interesting point that it is much easier to spread lies and negativity on social media than it is to spread good news and the truth.
Hard not to blame news channels too though. Constant stream of bad news, Culture wars. Hardly ever anything positive. Climate doom. You eventually train Weaker minds like a kind of brainwashing. Unable to critically think just accept what's reported and assume it's fact.
It’s comparable to the way cults attract members. It just happens rapidly, globally and virtually now. They always target people who are susceptible to being manipulated.
Zelensky did add though that he thinks Ukraine are doing a good job of fighting back on social media and piercing through the wall of lies. It's by no means all bad news : the Russian terrorist state had a free run at things for around a decade with their global propaganda, but for the first time ever, it's coming under strong attack.
Just finished the 7 hours of trauma zone. wow, greed greed greed.
Saw it a few weeks ago, it’s actually sad the way the ordinary man/woman in the street was fcuked over and a country set on a path of slow decline.
The whole system there is so fundamentally dysfunctional and corrupt that it seems impossible to fix. Amazing documentary.
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