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Dublin Bus shift change in town

brianc89

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere or a similar thread exists. I couldn't find anything.

I got the number 1 bus today on Pearse Street going northbound. This was the first stop for the bus.

The bus arrived to Parnell Square eight minutes late. At this point, there was a shift change which delayed it further.

What's the story with this? Could they not change shift at the first stop???!!!

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Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859546#Comment_119859546

fwiw I was in Milan a couple of weeks ago and noticed a few city centre changes for tram drivers. Didn’t get any buses but saw it with a fair few trams

Noticeable to me because I’d only ever witnessed it on Dublin bus before.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859914#Comment_119859914

Luas do it too at Sandyford and Red Cow. Done at Fairview on the DART.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859891#Comment_119859891

Sorry, don't dance around your original point which was to say '5 minutes is meaningless - you should have just left earlier'. 5 minutes can be the difference between catching a train or missing it.

I'm not referring to driver changes here - just generally. You obviously have lots of time on your hands, but the rest of the city is in a rush because that's how big cities work.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859946#Comment_119859946

If I had to catch a train at 13:00 let's say. Well then I'd aim to be in the station around the 12:30 mark it's not rocket science.

The majority of people who rush around on a constant basis do so because they don't leave enough time to get to their destination in the first place and I accept unforeseen things happen like accidents, breakdowns etc.

Fizzy Duck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859758#Comment_119859758

Well you may lose your 5 minutes with me, cos i'll be sticking to the schedule. At least once a week I'm asked to speed up on a 16 or 41 because someone will miss their flight. Not my responsibility. Safety of passengers first and foremost then the schedule.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859980#Comment_119859980

An extra 30 minutes? I never said I was catching a plane or a train to Cork.

For example, take a journey that should take 35-40 minutes with one connection in the city centre. If I miss the connection, it could add 20-25 minutes to my journey.

Are you suggesting I factor in 30 minutes contingency rather than expect public transport to run "somewhat" on time?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860206#Comment_119860206

The bus schedules are now all drawn up on a stop-by-stop basis and as such reflect stop dwell times. So every individual bus has scheduled arrival times at each stop.

The bus service doesn’t work any more on the basis of driving from one terminus to the other in the fastest possible time, but to a schedule all along the route. That’s to try and deliver a network that facilitates connections.

So while you think that you’re being delayed by a driver change, in fact you’re not, as the bus schedule allows for it.

That’s where a journey planner comes in useful, which does also allow a small contingency for delays when connections are involved. On Wednesday nothing could have accounted for the delays due to the road closures in the city centre.

DaBluBoi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859896#Comment_119859896

Surprised they use cars when the 4 and 13 are only a 5-10 min walk away, and have good frequency

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860216#Comment_119860216

Thanks for that explanation. I agree entirely.

At this stage, I'm not making any issue of bus driver changes. I was merely trying to understand why they happen in town and other people have explained extremely well.

At this point, other people here are making ridiculous arguments that we should add 30minutes contingency to journeys because it's unreasonable to expect buses to run on time.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859896#Comment_119859896

Ah nah, it's there, third to last paragraph ;)

GAI do the same on the L51 in Liffey Valley, drivers shunt themselves back to Ballymount on ferry cars in order to keep the number of buses in service down at two.

As for DCU, there could be a number of things - they probably could use The Helix, but at the same time it is a national events centre that gets locked away often enough (be it for external or internal events), and the restaurants on campus get locked up early enough, while the N4 has breaks happening pretty much all day long from 8am till 4am (it's only on Sundays this particular timespan gets reduced to, wait for it, 10am till 3am). Realistically, DB would have to construct their own break room.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860318#Comment_119860318

See above timespans of breaks on the N4. There'd be no services to bring the drivers into the garage after midnight ;)

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859983#Comment_119859983

Wasn't you on the pavement then? 🤣

Give us the inside scoop PLEASE!!!

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860632#Comment_119860632

A portacabin would probably do the job

Vic_08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859896#Comment_119859896

Is there a room available? You'd be surprised how many places get snotty when requested to provide even the most basic provisions for bus drivers.

As already said, mid-route changeovers is not something unique to Dublin. However the presence of proper bus stations at multiple terminus locations in many cities is a huge factor in reducing mid-route changeovers as the presence of a break room and staff toilet facilities at termini actually make them suitable locations for drivers to take a break, imagine that.

LXFlyer

Just to add that using staff cars for driver changeovers used to happen back in the 1980s, when some duties at Donnybrook used them for driver changes on the 17 at UCD.

Vic_08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119861125#Comment_119861125

Would you be happy to have your lunch break in a portacabin?

I had some truly dreadful break locations in Bus Eireann, shipping containers with a door and window cut in being a popular option, freezing in winter and heat box in summer.

Limerick station was a rancid portacabin for many years and don't get me started on some of the staff toilets, Galway was a particular highlight.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119861362#Comment_119861362

The Go-Ahead canteen at the airport is literally a portacabin as is the Aircoach canteen and the Go-Ahead canteen in Dun Laoghaire isn't much better than a portcabin. Go-Ahead were fcuked out of the hotel in Blanchardstown where their drivers were breaking leaving drivers literally using a break bus for breaks for a period of time.

Your right though break provisions for bus drivers in Ireland are usually absolutely crap.

Polar101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860216#Comment_119860216

How much time in the schedule is allocated to the driver changes? They do take quite a long time - first a chat, then the first driver clocks out, picks up his stuff and leaves - and then a few more minutes while the second driver sets up to go. Go-Ahead driver changes seem to be even slower (and they don't usually tell the passengers that there is an additional 5-minute wait to get the bus back on schedule).

I appreciate the driver changes are necessary, but maybe they could be done in a way that acknowledges that the passengers onboard would prefer to continue their journey as soon as possible?

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863220#Comment_119863220

It takes a few minutes to do as the new driver has to put all his/her details into the ticket machine a slow process due to how outdated the wayfarers are.

The driver also has to adjust his/her seat and steering wheel to their preferred position sometimes the seat can be a bit stiff and a bit of a pain to adjust then the driver may want to catch a breath for a few minutes to have a think what they're doing could be their first time doing that route for a couple of months or driving that particular type of vehicle for a while.

Also the conversation being had could be well be work related and not just gossip could be the outgoing driver telling the incumbent driver about any issues on the route like diversions or any defects on the bus they need to aware of.

hairymaryberry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119856289#Comment_119856289

Do you start work in one place and finish in another?

Do you disagree that when this happen people should be paid as they make the way back to where they started?

hairymaryberry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119856737#Comment_119856737

4.5 hours is wrong its 5:45 the max time of a work out.

You could be unlucky and get a duty that is 5:35 first half with a 1 hour break and come back for 2:25 second half, for a 8 hour work day.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863800#Comment_119863800

Is that not a good thing? Surely you want a shorter second half as physiologically it feels like you've less work to do after break.

That's always been the way I've looked at it anyway I know some people moan that they hangry if they're break is too late.

hairymaryberry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863863#Comment_119863863

Physiologically it feels like you got screwed, 10 more minutes on the first half and you would have been finished for the day 😪

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863914#Comment_119863914

Never mind

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119863220#Comment_119863220

DB don't seem to allocate any extra time for handovers at handover stops, it's just part of whatever running time gets calculated. Keep in mind that on the old network routes, intermediate handover times in the working timetable more often than not don't reflect actual travel time, but may have been twisted here or there in order to build legal duties. My favourite example is thankfully since long gone from the schedule, but on the Mon-Fri 13, the 18.00 ex Grange Castle was given 80 minutes to reach Parnell Square only so that the duty picking it up there had a full 50 min break - realistically at that time of the day you'd only need 50-55 minutes to cover said distance. More often than not, the bus was just dumped in Parnell Square upon early arrival.

GAI has holding time at some locations, but it's just as well part of potential passenger dwell time. The only en-route handovers in the GAI city network at the moment are Dun Laoghaire stn. for the 111, Dundrum for the 17 and 175 (used to break in UCD before they got their own room constructed in Dundrum), and Blanch SC for the 220: all other services break at termini or don't break anywhere on the route at all. Out of these three, Dundrum doesn't have any extra holding time for handovers (also, funnily enough, 17 handovers happen only eastbound). The holding time on the 104 in Beaumont Hospital appears to be a remnant of the very first break location on that route (yes, you're reading that right), but thankfully that idea didn't last long.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119861520#Comment_119861520

The version I'd heard about GAI in Blanch is that they ceased using the location for Covid reasons, especially since - if I'm not mistaken - the Crowne Plaza ended up being used as a quarantine location? Now whether it's because GAI chose to leave it or because they were told to yeet themselves out is beyond me. Amusingly enough, in the September 2022 duty cards, walking time to "Rest Room (Crowne Plaza)" is still included, so...

mikeybhoy

Did GAI have break facilities for drivers on the 104 in Beaumont hospital or were just expected to take their breaks there without facilities? I think Bray and UCD were like that for a while they had nowhere for drivers to take their breaks.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119866318#Comment_119866318

I honestly don't know either way - I just remember my extreme surprise at seeing the very first takeover schedule, got shown a duty card, bam, Beaumont Hospital handovers. Whatever possessed them to do it...

Bray didn't have a facility at first, true, but now they have a break room. UCD in the end ended up getting a spare bus of sorts as a break room before they pulled out of there as a breaking location altogether.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119868584#Comment_119868584

Well I afaik the reason UCD isn't used as a break location is because UCD didn't have anywhere to rent to GAI so they found somewhere in Dundrum instead Shane Ross' former constituency office coincidentally. UCD would probably be a more logical place given the parking issues in Dundrum.

Fizzy Duck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119866318#Comment_119866318

No. We are advised we could use the bathrooms and the small shop, but obviously they weren't happy if you brought your own lunch and didn't buy anything. After about 2 months it was switched to the Westwood.

TranslatorPS

I should probably mention that in its first instances, the Airport itself was considered a break location for GAI - but I understand that all the 33A+33B+102 duties were made break in the car park portacabin once the pandemic started in spring 2020.

As for the regional services, various things happen there. GAI have their main base in Naas and a subdepot in Edenderry. In Edenderry the story is simple enough - handover on the 120C/D and pull in on the Dublin 120. In Naas, services fininshing in Newbridge will usually pull into Naas empty, but those continuing to Kildare will usually have a handover on the main road outside Toughers Industrial Estate. There're also handovers on the 130 in Naas town, and all of those non-depot handovers near Naas involve ferry cars. A limited number of breaks also happen in Connolly Station (Sheriff Street), and I've seen duties with both handover and "keep your bus" arrangements. There used to be a time when some Naas duties pulled into Ballymount for a break - either as a midway stop on the way from Dublin to Naas, or to come out to Connolly again - but I don't think this is still in place.

BE has a plethora of things happening. As I'd already mentioned, the 103 and NX handover in Beresford Place. The 115 and 133 do so in Connolly Station, parking the buses in Sheriff Street. However, in both cases, most duties will include walking time to Busaras, where 109 and 111 breaks take place too (although rarely with a handover per se). A slightly different animal is the afore-mentioned 105 with breaks in Blanchardstown hospital. Broadstone's outbased services may just as well include breaks in their outbases: Kells on the 109s, Cavan station on the 109X, Athboy on the 111, Mullingar on the 115, and Wicklow on the 133. Bus Eireann as a whole has to be a lot more flexible in their internal scheduling, and I would honestly consider Broadstone tame comprared to what I've seen in some of the other east coast garages...

hairymaryberry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864762#Comment_119864762

Can confirm no extra time given on a journey when handing over.

The reality is many timetable have had insufficient running time for years, the Covid break from normal services allowed them to keep these rosters/timetables, but now we are back to pre covid levels of traffic and passengers it clear for all to see, the rosters/timetables are not fit for purpose, but with Bus connect rolling out they wont bother changing, going to wait until those routes are online for new rosters/timetables and se if they are any improvement. They wont be😥