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Is WHS fit for purpose

Seve OB

There is enough chatter on the other threads so try keep this one a simple yes or no.

some people like the new system, others don’t, while some think it’s good but could be better if tweaked.

but for this question, just answer yes or no as to WHS in its current state.

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Comments

DiegoWorst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670834#Comment_119670834

I'm not sure if that is possible to achieve. Handicap adjustments can't be less than 1 full shot AFAIK.

I have heard of some clubs manually inputting a penalty score with a gross differential of (handicap - 1), if it deems the player is manipulating his handicap upwards, and for players trying to lower their handicap some other penalty is applied. How the club decides which is appropriate, I have no idea.

Anyway however it is decided, I think it is better than a record full of nett double bogeys.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670383#Comment_119670383

that's just being a d1ckhead IMO

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119671747#Comment_119671747

Happens in my club a lot.

Golfgraffix

Do it once in my club and you are out of the next 3 comps, do it again and you are suspended from all comps until it’s explained

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670383#Comment_119670383

Yes it is cheating. Guy at our place notorious for it. The lowest hc in the club but not the best player. Ego maniac, but also cheating better players out of spots in Championships and elite scratch cups.

billy3sheets

If you set up the app to return a score and fail to do so after 4 days, you get an automatic penalty score applied. Can be appealed to Handicaps Committee with valid explanation.

If you don't play a hole in a strokes comp you get a net double bogey (0 points) applied for that hole.

If you fail to return a score in a club competition, it is up to the club committees to deal with it.

Recommended penalties:

Reason : Penalty Score Non-valid reason (e.g. memory or not realising a score had to be returned in such situations as injury, failing light, dangerous weather etc.)

Penalty Score: A score equivalent to the current Handicap Index should be submitted to the WHS Platform (i.e. an Adjusted Gross Score which would be equivalent to the Course Rating + Course Handicap).

Reason: Possible attempt to keep handicap low

Penalty Score : A score equivalent to the Adjusted Gross Score of the highest return in the last 20 scores should be submitted to the WHS Platform.

Reason: Possible attempt to build a handicap

Penalty Score: A score equivalent to the Adjusted Gross Score of the lowest return in the last 20 scores should be submitted to the WHS Platform.

As someone mentioned, the minimum manual adjustment to HI is 1.0.

Salvadoor

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/golf/2022/10/31/denis-walsh-world-handicap-system-giving-bandits-more-scope-to-deceive/

From IT

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814503#Comment_119814503

Behind paywall

finglashoop

https://archive.ph/mCfm8

Paywall removed here

y0ssar1an22

anything this easily manipulated is not fit for purpose regardless of other pro's, that is such a fundamental flaw

Russman

Just by the by, has anyone heard/seen any feedback from other countries about WHS ? Obviously it would be anecdotal, but I'd be curious to see how its viewed considering most of the world was using a very close variant of WHS prior to CONGU coming on board. Like is it just in Ireland that a fair cohort don't like it, is it just GB&I or is it more widespread ?

blue note

That article says very little anyway. Annoyingly, he spends most of it explaining that golf is self regulated / that breaking or bending rules is looked on differently to other sports. Denis, if you're reading this, I can assure you that no non-golfers are going to read an article about changing handicap systems!

I'd love actual data on it, but I don't know when if ever we'll get it. I wonder do they not want to release it as it will add fuel to the fire of people giving out about the system.

I also think though that listening to people you would think that this system is almost universally hated because it doesn't work. Whereas lookin at the poll here 2 thirds of people seem to feel it does work. I wonder are those who are unhappy with it just the loudest.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815373#Comment_119815373

It's also a factor of the most egregious outliers being given huge publicity. It's hard to drown out that noise with people saying nothing because they're happy enough with it. Like all systems (and especially with golf) it has its flaws which are supposed to be dealt with by the clubs themselves. If they're not doing their part, it doesn't help.

But for what it is, it does the job it's supposed to do and (imo) is a lot better than the previous system. One of the main reasons for its introduction was to have more people with active handicaps and more counting rounds on their records. Hopefully we'll see if that's been achieved.

blue note

I agree fully. I made the point (I'm pretty sure here) that we're now more aware than ever of those outlier scores. Before whatsapp and twitter and boards, if someone shot 50 points he was the talk of the club and there was probably a small amount of chat about it in clubs locally. Now, if someone shoots 50 points in a club I never heard of before in Tipperary, his score and handicap record are screenshotted and shared around the country. So even when you're hearing about these scores more, it doesn't mean they are happening more. They might be, but not necessarily. For example, I haven't seen those scores in my home club at all. And the one closest to my house I'm told scores in the mid-40s almost never happen. But I know a club in Tipperary has a serious problem with them.

And I much prefer it too. Were it not for WHS I'd have 3 counting scores this year. Instead I have 13. And from the start of the year I've been cut 5.3 shots. Under the old system I'd have received .3 shots back.

PARlance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814934#Comment_119814934

Have a friend living in Switzerland and he thinks the system is brilliant, and that the general consensus seems to be that it's a great system.

BUT, and it's a big but... He says the attitude over there is very different. You would be shamed from your club is you were suspected of building your handicap in any way. They just don't tolerate the idea of it, why would you want to not be your best/lowest.

He knows the crack with Irish golf and sees the pitfalls of the system here.

spacecoyote

Is Ireland the only place that doesn't apply the course rating to the handicap calculation?

I think the feedback in the UK is similar to Ireland in terms of seeing a similar spike in the big numbers winning competitions

Golfgraffix

No course rating for 18 holes in the 4 home unions. We are different in so far as Ireland are the only ones to do double rounding.

Scottish Golf reported earlier in the year that 25% of all counting rounds were casual golf.

it will interesting to see the motions for this years Leinster AGM

walterking

I like it.

I used to play golf 20+ years ago. I was given a customary 18 handicap and could never compete in club contests. Gradually improved, but got cut to 16 when I still was way off competing.

Back playing for the past year, got initial WHS of 35.2. Have won a cat3 and came 2nd in three others. Felt great. It encouraged me to play every week and in every club contest. If I'm in a scramble, I'm not a liability. I'm now 26.4, have had lessons and have been encouraged to look at representing the club. If it was the old system, I would not have played with such vigor

The WHS is not perfect and it could do with tweaking (maybe a limit on the number of casual rounds counting and a penalty for not having x number of official rounds each year), but its a million miles better from the previous system and those that "cheat" it are usually found out anyway

billy3sheets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815373#Comment_119815373

@blue note I agree with your view on the article. What is the "actual data" you'd love to see?

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119815606#Comment_119815606

That’s what I sort of expected tbh. Our natural inclination towards a rule seems to be “how can I get round that” rather than “how do I comply with that” (and not just in golf). I think it was half acknowledged under CONGU with the ESR being mandatory in Ireland but not in the UK. Meh, it’s neither here nor there anyway I suppose, we’d look like awful t1ts at this point if we tried to opt out of a worldwide system because of a few rogues in clubs.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816990#Comment_119816990

I think we saw the average score by handicap range and it showed that the lower your handicap, the lower your average score. But they were all fairly close, much more so than under CONGU.

What I'd love to see is chances of winning broken down by handicap category, plus chances of being in the prizes / top 3. On top of that what would be very interesting would be if you could give the stats for club majors vs non majors. Everyone seems to think that the captains and medals are won by higher handicaps far more often. I wonder is this the case.

It would be useful to see this compared to CONGU, because it might show that under CONGU it was not an equitable system. So maybe your chances of winning have gone down, but that might not be unfair.

And specifically, I don't think figures looking at winners compared to handicaps across the whole club mean a whole lot - the lower guys tend to play far more. And similarly looking at percentage of winners broken down by categories would mean much either. There are far fewer low guys than mid and mid to high handicap lads. You'd need to look at the winners compared to who played in the competitions.

Another one I'd like to see is casual scores vs comp scores. I reckon they're very similar. But I'm basing that on nothing.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119816990#Comment_119816990

This could be what BN is referring to..

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/data-reveals-world-handicap-system-is-levelling-playing-field

billy3sheets

@blue note

I think we saw the average score by handicap range and it showed that the lower your handicap, the lower your average score. But they were all fairly close, much more so than under CONGU.

I think the HowDidIDo data above sows that scores returned are much more even across the categories under WHS. As regards winners of prizes, I can only comment on my own club. We believe there is a distribution of prize winners similar to the handicap distribution. Prizes are most often won by teen handicaps, aligning with the handicap distribution - see table (Read as 381 in 10-20 HI range, 300 in 10-20 HCAP off Blue)

Few Medal winners in the 20s but just pipping much lower golfers. Captains won by 12 handicap.

It would be useful to see this compared to CONGU, because it might show that under CONGU it was not an equitable system. So maybe your chances of winning have gone down, but that might not be unfair.

I think we should forget CONGU and move on. It's in the past.

Across all competitions, I believe the winners would align with the handicap distribution. there's not good reporting available for precise analysis.

Another one I'd like to see is casual scores vs comp scores. I reckon they're very similar. But I'm basing that on nothing.

Reporting on this is available to club officials on Golf Ireland system. I like to do some additional analysis, again specific to my club

Male golfers only

I hope this satisfies some of your hunger for data 😁

blue note

Cheers Billy. It's good to read but my hunger is insatiable! One clubs data doesn't satisfy me. I'd want to see something like the hdid data (say for comp scores across Ireland for a year).

It looks like you've broken down your membership by handicap ranges which is useful. But I'd hazard a guess that the single digit guys play more on average than guys in their 20s. So maybe the percentage of winners in those ranges is similar to the percentages of them in the club, but really I'd want to see what the percentage is in relation to competition entrants.

I was tempted to say the same about forgetting CONGU, but I wonder would a little analysis of it help people to let go of it. I get the impression that a lot of people feel that CONGU was fair or the right way to do things. And i doubt that's the case. A single digit guy might have had 3 times the liklihood of winning a comp under it that a 20 handicapper had. And now if they've the same liklihood I can see why he'd feel hard done, but what might have changed is that it's fair now and wasn't then.

And for the casual rounds, the question there is how they compare to competition rounds. Are people building handicaps with casual rounds or are they just using it to keep their handicap current?

My gut tells me that the new system is a significant improvement on the old one. Not better in every way, but better overall. But I'd love to see proper golf Ireland stats on it that shed light on some of the criticisms of it.

mjsc1970

I hope I'm wrong, but, I'd say GI care not a jot about how WHS is working out for the club golfer

billy3sheets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119823063#Comment_119823063

Well, our regular comps have 1 overall prize and 4 categories with equal numbers of golfers in each category so that evens out the prizes.

But I'd hazard a guess that the single digit guys play more on average than guys in their 20s.

Not sure about this without further analysis, but I'd say you're incorrect. Guys who would play more would be older, retirees and not many are single figures.

And for the casual rounds, the question there is how they compare to competition rounds. Are people building handicaps with casual rounds or are they just using it to keep their handicap current?

GI reporting is available on this and it is monitored. Even with stats, handicap building is a difficult thing to determine. As you can see from above 53% had no casual rounds. Other golfers play a lot of casual rounds, often in a wide variety of courses. I would expect they would not score as well on these on their home course. I believe very few engage in handicap building .

slingerz

For me the WHS needs to somehow factor in historical ability in the calculating of handicap index. The ability to go up 3 shots is too much let alone 5 after the soft cap.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119824598#Comment_119824598

Category prizes are a good idea and certainly fair. But you still have an overall prize and that's the one I'm sure people want to win most. A lot of people's perception is that the lower handicaps barely have a chance of winning that. And real stats on it would show people that that is or isn't the case.

The fact that we're guessing in opposite ways about what handicaps play more often actually backs up the point that we're all forming opinions based on guesswork and without proper stats none of us really have a clue.

And as regards the casual rounds - the concern is that people are using them to build handicaps. Some think this is what they're mainly used to do. So the question is whether allowing them is leading to higher or lower handicaps or on average keeping them the same. The fact that people are submitting them doesn't indicate that they're working or not at all.

Rikand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119821749#Comment_119821749

Specific to mine. While we have a higher percentage of casual rounds being played here, the other stats are broadly similar to Billy's club

PARlance

Our club has a book in operation for casual rounds (need to sign for €5 to be taken from your "competition" purse). From a few glances at the book, it's disproportionately the lower guys playing casual rounds... Lots and lots of young members on it, with more time I assume, who were looking to get their HC down as much as possible.

There were certainly none of the usual suspects on it. Maybe the €5 and the fact that you have to write it in the book has been a deterrent. Or maybe they're happy enough to just play very poorly during competition rounds these days. Possibly settled into a groove/can manage it well from there.

The winning teams so far in our winter league had some horrendous ends to the qualifying season. Scores of 22-24 points being returned in 18 holes comps for the last few weeks of qualifying. I've given up being annoyed by it, there's very little to be done so just let them off... If they want to carry shots and have the stigma attached to them, then off they go. I've finally reached the acceptance stage.