Following on from here
New Munster chat thread folks. warning deserved there. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109477571#post109477571
Yeah typhoony isn't saying that though.
I agree with him/her.
I don't think anyone in the last couple of pages is saying that Billy Holland wasn't a good servant of munster in his time.
If I was to sum up what I think some posters are trying to say, (and let me be lambasted if I'm wrong) is that if we are celebrating the standard of the career of Billy Holland in a Munster context of the last decade, then our standards are too low. As an earlier poster said, he was 4th to POC, Donncha O C and Donncha Ryan.
We lost the latter 3, and we also lost the standard that they kept.
And please, can we park to one side this concept of a player "being a sound bloke".
We heard similar stuff when Keatley was let go.
I'm a fcukin sound bloke. But if I was sub standard at my job, that I was being paid a decent salary for, I'd expect to be called on that, and possibly not have my contract renewed because of it. A
And certainly not entertain a scenario where I could keep my position based on the fact that "I get on well with everyone"
Professional sport by definition has a ruthlessness to it when it comes to who gets to play and who doesn't.
Munster haven't been near ruthless enough since VG took over when it comes to both players and management. (and possibly before that)
I hope Rowntree is the reset we need in this regard.
He actually said Holland was an average pro12 player.
Holland was far better than average.
Yes.... And....
All of these things can be true at the same time Phog!
If you want to list second rows then mention the other players, the ones that billy holland was kept in favour of, because there are a few of those.
Billy holland most certainly isnt the reason Munster didnt win silverware in a long time, and if someone wants to put forward that argument then let them defend why ospreys havent won silverware in 10 years because they had AWJ in his prime.
Munster's problem hasn't been that Billy Holland was around for so long, it's that there haven't been enough Billy Hollands.
About time someone released dates for the ERC matches, Sunday 11th is the worst possible date from my point of view though the kick off time might work out for me.
Officials for Friday night's game in Galway
Referee: Chris Busby (IRFU, 25th league game)
AR 1: Frank Murphy (IRFU) AR 2: Dan Carson (IRFU)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (IRFU)
I think your comparison to Michael Bent summed it up perfectly. The kind of hard working pro that gets you to finals. Can fill in at a pinch in top level games without a huge drop off. The kind of pro that puts in consistently high levels of performance but is just that little bit off the very top level. Holland was that kind of player. Maybe lacked a little size to be top level but as a casual observer, I never saw him perform badly either.
All teams need them or they won’t make the finals.
..
Keatley was an interesting one. He was a much better 10 than he was made out to be an he was given the task of steering the team following the reign of one of the best (if not the best) 10s ireland has ever produced. he definitely wasnt up there with the best in europe but during his time in munster he was still arguably the best 10 we had and would get very unfairly scapegoated for a poorly-performing team.
The only useful thing Keatley ever did was smash Wayne Barnes in the puss with the ball
I love some of big boy talk here when it comes to talking about how good Munster players were/are.
Keatley is the perfect example tbh. He was the best 10 Munster had, but he wasn't remotely good enough. It wasn't his fault he ended up in that position, and Munster would have hoped that either JJ or Bleyendaal would be the answer, but that was the reality. Whether he was 'scapegoated' is a matter of perspective I guess.
Think you are suffering from grass is greener syndrome there...
i think he got alot of unfair blame at times, i remember him being singled out after the racing semi a few years ago. he didnt have an amazing game by any stretch of the imagination but he wasnt terrible either and he was hamstrung by the poor performance by the forwards. i really wouldnt say he wasnt good enough, he was pretty decent at a time when munster were generally weak enough. i seem to remember js singling him out as an invaluable squad member after the 2018 grand slam
and i think youre forgetting that keatley was a much better player than he was given credit for. also probably forgetting some of his performances away to connaught in horrific weather (motm if i remember) and leicster (cant remember if he got motm, dont think he did but he would have been close to it), two very hard places for a 10 to go and get results.
was he o gara/sexton etc level? of course not, but he was a solid, european-level player
Or indeed, Johnny Holland.
Bleyendaal’s 2016/17 has probably been the best season from a Munster 10 since O’Gara, (and that’s including Carbery unfortunately)
Holland isn't to blame for Munster's lack of success. Various Munster coaches and development systems are to blame for not having a better option and the fact that Holland has 250 caps is a sign of that.
I remember when Billy Holland was 5th choice in Munster behind 4 Munster Legends. That said every time he has worn the jersey he left buckets of blood sweat and tears on the pitch. No can accuse him of not trying his hardest.
Keatley did deserve his call-up to Ireland and caps he got in Autumn internationals and Six Nations (v Italy I think?), had spells of very good form for us. And poor form, there were times I thought JJ should have been backed but overall I think he was an equivalent to Jack Carty for us.
Munster have had many experiments at 10 since OGara retired and all have failed and most have been farcical
Wasnt that call up for the Italy necessitated by injury as opposed to deserved by form?
"farcical" is ruduculously over the top.
Why give her/him the attention they crave?
Munster side named.
Munster: Joey Carbery; Conor Phillips, Malakai Fekitoa, Dan Goggin, Patrick Campbell; Ben Healy, Conor Murray; Dave Kilcoyne, Niall Scannell, Keynan Knox; Jean Kleyn, Tadhg Beirne; Jack O’Donoghue, Peter O’Mahony (C), Gavin Coombes.
Replacements: Scott Buckley, Jeremy Loughman, Stephen Archer, Edwin Edogbo, Jack O’Sullivan, Craig Casey, Rory Scannell, Fionn Gibbons.
Notable sections include Joey starting at 15 and Gav Coombes back from injury.
Carbery at 15 seems to be a break glass in case of emergency pick as Haley has a knock. Seriously bare bones in the back 3 now with the injuries and the Emerging Ireland tour. Still we'll now find out if some commentators are correct in saying that he's a full back.
Very happy with that …..Ben Healy now appears in pole position at 10.pleased with that carbery at full back ….interesting to see how it pans out
Kleyn back too. I'd prefer Zebo or Haley at FB than Carbery but needs must I suppose, as CM says we're down the bare bones in the back 3.
Interesting team right there, hopefully Murray makes the most of his first start in a while
Carbery at 15 seems to be out of necessity rather than design alright.
Pa Cambpell could've played there, but we’re missing all of Conway, Earls, Zebo, Liam Coombes (and Haley) thru injury and Shane Daly and Calvin Nash are on the EI tour.
Strong pack for Munster! They should get the upper hand in the tight. Good to see Coombes return.
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wa.vanillicon.com/v2/ad289898c0c6dda7e667bf900ae26d0c.svg)
