Following on from here
New Munster chat thread folks. warning deserved there. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109477571#post109477571
Billy didnt have what any of those players did in other areas, but he was 100% an elite level operator and organizer of the line out and far better than nearly all of those mentioned in that area of the game.
How so? He was a solid line out forward, I'll grant you, but hardly a powerful scrummager, or someone who would be renowned for his maul prowess.
He was way better than just solid at the lineout.
And as I said above, he was an extremely valuable squad member; akin to someone like Michael Bent at Leinster.
Even if this were true, and I don't think it is, would that alone make him a better than average player, if you accept he was worse than average at the initial points I made?
Like, this isn't me slating Billy Holland, or Munster here.
I'm just pointing out the fact that in my opinion average rugby players racking up 200+ appearances for Munster over a period where Munster have chronically underperformed and not won anything are obviously connected.
You're free to convince yourself that these guys are better than they are (every club is guilty of doing this a bit for its own players, especially loyal homegrown players), but this is my view of it.
In Leinster’s ProXX 4-in-a-row they had guys like James Tracy, Ed Byrne, Luke McGrath, Ross Molony, Michael Bent on the bench. Every team needs players of that ilk.
I was mixing up Cronin with Ryan.
This place is gas, especially from the non Munster posters, on the Monday after a match we're here "discussing" players who have retired years ago instead of talking about how Munster used a few young guys in the game and zero chat about how they performed. It's almost like talk about anything but make sure you talk negatively.
At least the "Munster don't back youth" arguments don't surface any more...
If you're referring to me here, I think you've missed a post where I specifically commented on those same young players and how optimistic I'd be about them.
You're free to take whoever you like, but if you keep taking players who have lots of heart and not enough ability, you shouldn't be surprised if you have another trophy-less decade.
You seem to be suggesting we had alternatives here with greater ability; we didn't.
In another post, you mentioned Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Donncha Ryan. These guys were starting 15 players. Holland never was. Nobody is suggesting he should have been.
But he is exactly that kind of guy you need in your squad to win regular season games, with a view towards getting a home semi-final / final. If we had more players of his ilk, we might well have gotten there in the last decade.
there were games where billy holland himself literally dragged his younger team mates over the winning line. He was an excellent professional and the type of player every team needs. Connacht had it with Mul. Holland may not have been the man to lead them in a European cup final, but he certainly was good enough to lead them in away games in the ProXX league.
You dont get to be munsters second highest capped player ever by being bang average, and its laughable to think so.
So, by that same qualifier, Stephen Archer is better than bang average?
Yeah Cronin and Ryan were cut with no contract offer. Cronin is with Leicester and Ryan is with Wasps.
It looks to me like Munster said we have 4 props over 30. We need to move a loose head and a tight head on.
Ryan has 2 starts and a bench appearance for Wasps. Cronin has 4 starts at Leicester.
They didn't meet at the weekend when Ryan was left out of the 23 for Wasps vs Leicester.
Munster chose to keep Kilcoyne and Archer.
One is retired. One is not
Im under no illusions the level billy holland was at. Munster were lucky to have him and ive acknowledged his strengths and weaknesses.
He contributed right up to the end, and didnt overstay his welcome.
If you doubt his utter class at the lineout have a watch of this.
His call for the two jumpers against Exeter is a favourite.
i dont recall Archer ever being an 80 minute player, nor ever captaining munster.
But regardless, yes i consider Archer better than bang average.
There have been games were he has gotten the upper hand on supposed better props at scrum time, but he lets his game down with some high profile silly penalties in the loose.
You need to add some past tense to that post because Archer is nothing other than a liability currently.
Previously he might have been those things you said, but that ship has well and truly set sail.
There have been games were he has gotten the upper hand on supposed better props at scrum time
that is in the past tense, and i wasnt arguing that Archer is currently not bang average. As my comment obviously referred to billy hollands whole career, it also referred to Archers whole career.
the fact hes munsters first choice tighthead when salanoa and knox are gone isnt his fault.
Isn't he just the first choice TH? He's certainly ahead of Knox.
Well knox started ahead of archer against zebre, but benched behind him against dragons, so maybe theyre seen on a par.
Its also notable that Knox started ahead of Salanoa against Cardiff in the opening game, with Archer not named in the squad.
One last thing I'll say about Holland that I remember hearing awhile back was that, as recently as the 2017/18 season, he started 27 games. Some going.
Gav Coombes and Kleyn are back in training.
Zebo and Liam Coombes are out with calf and hamstring injuries respectively.
Kendellen has passed his RTTPs, but has been advised to rest for a few more weeks by a specialist.
That’s concerning about Kendellen. Good to see they are being cautious beyond the RTPP’s though.
Zero awareness from Erasmus
Am I missing something?
Not sure who else saw against the head last night but Eddie O Sullivan seems convinced Munster will get used to the new playing style that Rowntree wants and come better in the next 4 games. Something to do with a 2 forwards and 1 back formation that he's seeing
Late in on this but some mad takes - Billy Holland is one of our greats. Epitome of the ultimate squad player, rugby brains to burn and was a brilliant leader for us. Ran the lineout too by the end.
You can forge out a very, very decent career without hitting Paul O'Connell's heights, few get to that level for that long.
Even though Holland got a couple of caps for Ireland he was only an average Pro12 player and he was joined in that category for a lengthy spell where Munster didn't win anything by a good few other average players. If Munster had had enough above average players taking out the internationals that were often rested then they would have won at least one Pro12 title in all those years
I disagree entirely. He's a club legend and definitely above "average Pro12 player" imo.
The "Munster would have won something" is an easy one to throw out, but even the most successful sides need players of Billy Holland's ilk.
There are many, many reasons why Munster didn't win a Prowhatever title, Billy Holland wasn't one of them. Players with lesser ability have winners medals. That's team sport for you.
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