The provinces wouldn’t have players like Johhny Sexton available at all if it wasn’t for the international team. The provinces are loss leaders for the international team.
That's a given but the IRFU don't have to dilute a product than any more than is necessary. There's no point in making a big deal of no clashes with international window and then going ahead with a tour just as the league kicks off.
Yes but given the short nature of the tour and the availability of front line internationals. It wasn’t really going to dilute the URC. If anything it was going to improve the selections for those fixtures.
Clearly the provinces didn’t see it that way and pushed back. Which has diluted the purpose of the tour. Personally I think the IRFU should have held firm. As the current solution is a bit in no man’s land.
Take your point but if it wasn't for the provinces, Sexton would have played in England/France for his career and be retired years ago most likely, it goes both ways.
People really are beinding over backwards to take issue with this tour. The IRFU system allows provinces to keep players they couldn't otherwise, saying the IRFU wouldn't have players without the provinces just isn't true. Ireland had rugby teams when the provinces played 2 or 3 irrelevant games a year, they are literally the invention of professionalism, created by the IRFU. Ireland could be like Wales, its not because they developed a different system. The IRFU might have created two or three pro teams called IRFU 1, 2 and 3 to keep players in Ireland and have a competitive national team and the provinces would be a relic of amateurism. For good or bad the union runs the game in Ireland and their ultimate priority is the Irish team.
This is a bit of a rambling post.
People really are beinding over backwards to take issue with this tour.
And equally you could argue some are being too praise-worthy of it also. When it was announced, I think you described it as a "phenomenal opportunity"? That just seems over the top to me.
Ultimately, there are legitimate criticisms of it; whether they are worth it is where the debate actually lies.
The first two are shades of colour, but the Union is the national team. That is their mission, developing the grassroots, ensuring that the provinces are involved in competitive competition, recruiting wisely, etc, is all about having a strong national team. That objective ensures that the rest of the system remains coherent and aligned. If they wanted strong provinces as the end game it would look different, same as if youth participation was the ultimate objective. It's not though, strategically the union has concluded that rugby is best served by creating a hierarchy with the national team at the top, the rest feeds into it. And because of that when there is a disconnect between the interests of that objective and the interests of any of its component parts, the objective wins. Organisation 101 in late capitalism.
For a couple of players it is a phenomenal opportunity. If Frawley leads the team very well from ten then he is absolutely in the frame to make squads at ten for Ireland which puts him in the frame for the WC. Those opportunities are far less likely to come with Leinster. But honestly, this is more of the same. It's an asbsolute stretch to argue that some posters have been as gushing about the tour as others have been critical. Not many people are over excited about it, it's a good opportunity to get some young guys experience in the national set up, potentially useful experience for some of the coaches being in charge of a touring group, and it's possible/likely that a few players can push on into the Ireland group for the world cup, it definitely expands the pool of players with experience in the set up. Those are the pro arguments that many people have made. The anti stuff is completely ott, conspiratorial verging on provincial paranoia, along with groundless criticism of union decision making and bs about provinces being disrespected, the is no comparison between the two positions.
You said if it wasn't for the provinces Sexton would have been away playing. Nonsense, the union built the system the provinces are part of. If it weren't provinces it would be some other union controlled pro team invested in keeping players in the country. You're making an equivalence between the union and the provinces. They're not equivalent. One is in charge of the whole thing, the other isn't. I guess you're right that it's not a North Korean style dictatorship where there is zero dialogue, but I really don't think any one is under the illusion that it's a totally one way street.
For a couple of players it is a phenomenal opportunity. If Frawley leads the team very well from ten then he is absolutely in the frame to make squads at ten for Ireland which puts him in the frame for the WC. Those opportunities are far less likely to come with Leinster. - i find this a bizarre way of thinking, despite the fact that it does actually line up with the way AF looks at selection. someone who is not featuring regularly at 10 for their province should be nowhere near the national team imo, its much too important of a decision-making position to have someone who isnt experiencing the pressure of playing there regularly. it looks like ian madigan all over again except at least he was a starter for leinster, even if it were at 12
thats not to say frawley cant be an option at 10, but he needs to somehow become second choice there for leinster before he can be a viable option for ireland (imo anyway), a few games against very poor opposition shouldnt affect that in the slightest
apart from he and balacoune i dont see any others pushing for a rwc 2023 spot and even at that i dont think either of them will be going save for injury or form falling off a cliff
If Frawley leads Leinster very well tomorrow against Benetton it will give everyone a far greater insight into his abilities at 10 than him leading a scratch team against a Currie Cup side in South Africa.
It is absolutely bizarre to suggest a game against such low quality opposition is a "phenomenal opportunity".
Not if he impresses the coaches on the tour. Clearly the opposition was never an important aspect of this tour. The fact that Frawley is leading Leinster at ten shows that he is being taken very seriously as a ten in the Ireland equation. This issue has been bubbling for a couple of years, there is no reliable backup to Sexton for Farrell. Needs must.
Is this:
The fact that Frawley is leading Leinster at ten shows that he is being taken very seriously as a ten in the Ireland equation.
not completely at odds with this:
If Frawley leads the team very well from ten then he is absolutely in the frame to make squads at ten for Ireland which puts him in the frame for the WC. Those opportunities are far less likely to come with Leinster.
You can’t have it both ways.
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. If the IRFU didn’t fund the provinces then players would play abroad. As there would be no reason not to. If you believe the player welfare program has increased the length of Sextons career. Then yes that’s probably true. Though we have no want of knowing that. The point is the all the money is generated by the international game. Without the provinces don’t exist as professional teams.
My point was the IRFU have set up the system this way because it suits them so the provinces play an important role in that regard. There is a benefit to the provinces existing for the IRFU, it allows players to play in Ireland, it allows them to follow the rest programme etc
For example Connacht were far closer to being disbanded in 2009 than in 2004 when the march happened. The only reason they weren’t was because IRFU research carried out showed four teams were necessary to most effectively compete.
The provinces don’t exist because of the goodwill of the IRFU, they exist because the IRFU need them for their ultimate priority, the national team.
But both are true, he's had one start at ten for Leinster in his career. He got two for Ireland in NZ and is headed on another Ireland tour as the ten. Now he gets another Leinster start at ten. Doesn't take a genius to figure out he's been pushed up the rank at Leinster due to his increasingly prominent role for Ireland.
Doesn't take a genius to figure out he's been pushed up the rank at Leinster due to his increasingly prominent role for Ireland.
But if he's being pushed up the ranks at Leinster then your assertion that "those opportunites are far less likely to come with Leinster" isn't true, by definition. (Evidenced by the fact that he's starting 2moro night).
"those opportunites are far less likely to come with Leinster"
As I said, you can't have it both ways.
Yes the provinces do exist to serve a need for the international team. I never claimed it was good will. I simply said that the likes of Sexton wouldn’t be available to the provinces if they didn’t serve that function.
Yes and as I stated in my first post my point was that if Sexton was playing in England or France he would be playing far more games and very likely to be retired years ago.
Pointless...I'm not sure whether you are trying to make a point about rugby or, what seems more likely, just a bad faith online pissing contest. Were it not for the Maori starts I doubt he would be starting for Leinster this weekend. Most Leinster fans on here have been confidently rejecting the idea of Frawley at ten all year, right up until Farrell set them straight. Leinster coaches too if you consider his one start and how 'they like him at 12'. It's not the first time that the Irish coach has shown provincial coaches the way forward, or fans for that matter.
Which was the bit that I was saying we don’t know if that’s true. Some players just have more longevity.
And if the IRFU piss about with the provinces too much to the detriment of their domestic competitions (i.e. in an extreme example driving the Welsh and SA teams away from the comp) they will very quickly find that it has a detrimental impact on the national team.
Sure, it can't be proven at an individual level. I would expect there is a vast amount of research that shows generally speaking, longer periods of rest, less pressure to play when not 100% fit, etc will serve to prolong careers.
I hate to go on about this but Ive started so Ill finish. This is exactly the kind of melodramatic exaggeration that lots of posters have been engaging in about this tour. Wales' club teams have been absolute garbage for a decade and it's largely the responsibility of the welsh union yet somehow by sending a team on tour early in the league season, leaving frontline test players available to the provinces, the IRFU risk alienating Wales and SA which might threaten the competition? All while the Irish system is probably the best managed in the league and the provinces are all in good/excellent health...this is the comment that gets the gold medal.
We are talking about a 10 day tour involving 2nd and 3rd string players. Do you not think that’s reaching a little?
I think the IRFU think so. Not sure our players last longer than their international counterparts though. Sexton is just a massive outlier.
I did say in extremis. I do not think this tour will cause this, but it is just yet another example of the flippancy that the IRFU show towards the domestic competitions and further evidence of why they will never be taken seriously.
We already do not have a domestic competition to match the Premiership and Top14 on numerous parameters. The IRFU showing continued disregard for the competition will help ensure that continues.
I am well aware Wales have their own problems, but their consistent bitching about Ireland not taking the competition seriously clearly have merit.
Pointless...I'm not sure whether you are trying to make a point about rugby or, what seems more likely, just a bad faith online pissing contest.
Wow, ok....
Were it not for the Maori starts I doubt he would be starting for Leinster this weekend...
See, I'd largely agree with this and the rest of your post. But the logical conclusion is that "those opportunities are were far less likely to come with Leinster".
There's a big difference.
I think his start 2moro night is a bigger opportunity than the games against the Currie Cup teams. You don't have to agree but it doesn't make what I'm saying "a bad faith pissing contest".
