Take out same put in similar. None of us know either whether this is a financial gain for the IRFU I presume, unless I missed an article somewhere?
It's not a tour where the results are going to matter. People seem to consistently miss this point.
Every single player selected in the squad has had limited to no time in an Irish camp for various reasons.
For some of these players (Baloucoune, Blade, Frawley, Deegan) - this tour is an opportunity to impress the Irish coaching team and get familiar with the systems. It is absolutely the case that impressive displays for those guys on this tour could see them in the full Irish squad in November, or very quickly able to be called in in case of injury.
For some of the younger guys, it's a first exposure to an Irish camp and the Irish coaches.
We know in the past the Irish coaches aren't overly concerned with the provincial pecking order if they think a guy is a fit for the style they want, with plenty of guys selected despite not starting for their province. But they do value time in the camp and familiarity with systems, which was why Ed Byrne was called out to NZ (despite arguably some more deserving alternatives), because he had that familiarity from previous time in camp).
I would strongly suspect here as well that Toyota are underwriting a chunk of the costs of this tour, and that is part of why it's happening. These guys will gain more from being together in a squad, learning the systems and being trialled against a different style of rugby to what they typically see and experience.
Clearly the coaches don’t believe so. How exactly are you qualified to know that? Since none of us know the goals or the inner workings of these camps.
A week long camp in Ireland would have presented the same opportunity without undermining provinces and the league.
He was out from December to March last season. He made five appearances when he returned. None of those players you mentioned converted to hooker from back row, last season was the earliest possible period he could have expected to make an impact given that switch. He’s probably a 100-1 shot to make the World Cup squad, he would be far better served playing against better opposition for his province over the next month.
Something to be shown where? Ciaran Frawley having a good game against Griquas is going to tell us a lot about his potential at test level?!
Yes Connacht would be underdogs regardless it doesn’t excuse taking away first choice players like Blade and Prendergast for some nonsense tour playing second tier South African teams.
This tour is a disaster for Connacht.
We're always hearing that Connacht players don't get a fair shake with Ireland. This is a chance for some of the guys to make an impression on Catt and Easterby that they wouldn't otherwise get. That's another way to look at it.
Prendergast was never going to be available v Ulster because he was in NZ.
He's 23, and converted to hooker over 4 years ago. He was on the same U20s side as Craig Casey, Ryan Baird, John Hodnett, Scott Penny, Ben Healy and Stewart Moore, all of whom have managed to rack up a lot more minutes despite arguably facing stiffer competition.
Jonny Murphy was keeping him out of a match day 23 regularly last season.
As numerous others have said; this tour means different things for different players. For the likes of Tierney Martin, Deeny, Illo, Milne etc it's about showing something to the coaching staff and getting used to the set up, and the style of play, so as to hopefully position themselves for the squads post next year's WC.
For other guys like Frawley, Baloucoune and Blade, there absolutely is something to be shown here, and the opportunity to find themselves in test squads for the autumn. I think Blade is a better player than Craig Casey right now, and at 28 he could absolutely still play a part for Ireland. Don't you want to see him get that opportunity?
Plenty of Connacht fans have moaned over the years when they've felt their players aren't getting enough international recognition, but don't recognise now that this is a pathway to that. Connacht need to build out more depth in any event; so the notion of dipping into academy players shouldn't be so startling.
Plus Connacht are going to go into the four games you've mentioned as underdogs in any event, regardless of the presence of guys like Dylan Tierney Martin or Sam Illo.
He’s had injuries and he’s a converted back row (since around 18 I think) who is still only 22. With Shane Delahunt out this would have been a real opportunity for him to put down a marker.
Three of the Connacht players touring are in the 23 v Ulster, I’m not sure why Cian Prendergast isn’t but he would certainly see game time assuming fitness over the next month. They don’t exactly have great depth to begin with.
Connacht are facing the two strongest South African teams and Munster and Leinster. They’re an injury to Dave Heffernan or Kieran Marmion away from relying on Grant Stewart and Colm Reilly at hooker/9 and academy backups.
This tour is a disaster for Connacht. All for a rabble of a tour against weak opposition.
Connacht have bothered to pick Dylan Tierney Martin only 6 times over the past couple of seasons, but now it's a tragedy that he'll miss sitting on the bench for a couple of games.
I’d say they are the leading candidates and maybe one of Doak/Blade, the former more likely I think. Maybe one of them, maybe none of them.
They won’t be playing alongside too many if any from this tour and they will have a a few months together before and during the World Cup, I don’t think this tour will make a tangible impact on how they perform at the World Cup if they do make squad.
Which two, Frawley and Baloucoune?
It’s a complete farce. Playing cheetahs etc won’t do anything to help get these guys to test level.
Dylan Tierney Martin is in Connacht’s 23 for tomorrow against Ulster, over the next month he would see game time against the two league finalists in South Africa, Leinster and Munster. Instead he’s on a rabble of a tour playing weak opposition.
The players will gain some insight into how Ireland operate etc but it doesn’t justify taking them away for three weeks. The absolute max is two guys make the World Cup squad, I would say it’s unlikely to be even that. This will have no tangible impact on how they perform given the length of time they will spend in camp pre World Cup.
Because as much was we care about the league we care about preparing as best as possible for the RWC even more... They can give out all they want, they just want to give out and if it wasnt for this tour they'd find something else to complain about so just let them moan and be miserable in their box for all I care...
I don't accept that it is two fingers to the URC really; particularly not if the IRFU have made some front line internationals available during this window who wouldn't ordinarily be available at this point in the season.
But even if it is, who cares? What do the IRFU owe to this competition at this juncture? Irish provinces have dominated it since its inception, winning it 13 out of the 21 years its existed. Regardless of what happens with this tour, the Irish sides will likely be at the business end of the competition once again this season.
The competitive integrity of the URC as a competition has more issues than this specific example.
It would be different things for different players.
That's exactly what it is. There's no way that Caoilin Blade and Brian Deeny could be going on the same tour for the same reasons.
For the bulk of these guys, they wouldn't be playing in the URC next couple of weeks anyway, but maybe we get a jump on prep for the 2027 RWC. Who k nows, maybe we'll find a bolter for 2023.
For a small minority of players, it's a chance to impress the coaches up close and personal and maybe skip the queue for the November tests. I'd say not more than three.
I think it will be a very useful tour for Ireland. @awec is right though, it's two fingers to the URC.
Yeah, that's it of course. It's "sailing over the head" of whoever disagrees with your take on this. 🙄
The point is still sailing over your head unfortunately, but I'm not going to drag this out any further.
I'm going to organise a march on IRFU headquarters tomorrow anyway. We can decide when we get there if it's a protest or a show of support.
If you take a long-term view I can see two positives for the a province:
The likes of frawley, baloucoune, blade, Prendergast, Deegan, Doak and Mccarthy could easily be called up into the World Cup squad come later group stages / quarter final time due to injuries. Exposing them to an environment led by the Irish coaches and most likely demanding that these players are the leadership group is actually very smart.
This is an absolute nonsensical take on this.
Of all the ways disdain has been shown (by all the participating Unions) for the URC (and its predecessors) over the years, this isn't even remotely near the top of the list.
For years, teams have routinely not picked anything resembling full strength squads for URC games for reasons purely driven by the player management policy, not injury.
The Welsh have full on quit on the competition multiple times.
The structure of the competition is flawed, and unfair on certain teams.
The quality of refereeing in the competition has been shambolic at times, with some absolutely daylight robbery decisions from home nation TMOs (like Ulster in SA).
The respective unions have ignored all of these very obvious issues and flaws with the competition. Yet somehow now, this tour (stated as part of our World Cup preparation) is "stupid", "disrespectful" and the worst thing the IRFU have ever done with regard to the competition.
The average age of players in this squad is 22, their average number of appearances for their provinces is 24 (highly skewed by a handful of guys like Blade, Deegan, Frawley who have considerable appearance numbers), so I just don't accept the belief that the provincial squads have been crippled by withdrawing a handful of players from all of them.
I can't for the life of me understand the negativity surrounding this tour.
You'd swear the provinces weren't going to be able to field a team the way some people are going on.
It is a huge positive for Irish rugby to have these young players in that environment and acclimating themselves to the Irish systems, patterns and coaching ticket. For the majority of the players involved, the prospect of going on this tour must be hugely exciting.
On Robert Baloucoune specifically, he wouldn't be going on this tour if not for the fact that he has missed huge chunks of rugby in recent years with a variety of injuries. That has cost him time in Irish camps, or opportunities to claim a shirt.
As good as he's looked for Ulster (and I think at his best he should be an Irish starter), it wouldn't surprise me if the coaching ticket feels he has something to prove to them, and have included him here to get a closer look at him for those purposes.
awec, you normally post with great insight but you have gone on a jihad about this tour! Of course there is a cost given that the tour happens during weeks with league matches but the IRFU calculate that the upside is greater than the downside. They think IT's WORTH IT. And if we get a couple of players who make the team better come the World Cup then it is worth it. Remember, from the IRFU's perspective EVERYTHING is designed to make the Irish team better. That's the mission.
This is total garbage. Total and absolute horse manure. One of the most badly thought out posts I’ve seen on this forum. It’s incredible really.
Ulster couldn’t re-sign Peinaar because they hadn’t produced a single IQ scrum half in years. They imported one (Boss) and immediately dropped him for Peinaar when the latter arrived. Having a province provide no realistic IQ players in a specialist position is not a runner in the medium term. And so Peinaar was not extended.
Absolutely none of the above is true of Leinster, the 10 shirt or Ross Byrne. The two things are in no way, shape or form comparable. And it’s beyond bizarre to try and equate the two to pedal a laughable provincial bias line.
We often disagree on things, but I’m actually stunned at how insane a take this is.
I’d imagine it isn’t any one thing. It would be different things for different players. But getting them familiar with the systems, getting them to work on specific things (most likely in the cases of Frawley and Balacoune) and then seeing how they apply those things in a match day situation would be, at a high level, what they are after. How that worked for them in the Māori games seems to be cited as the driver.
This is worse than anything the WRU have ever done. It's worse than the 4th test in the Autumn. This is, IMO, the clearest indication we have ever seen that the powers that be do not care whatsoever about the URC. The competition is treated with disdain, it's just there to fill the week
That’s known as projection
The people who keep saying "sure it's only 1 or 2 players" just keep missing the point. Missing any player who is in with a shout of playing league games for this reason is unacceptable.
You are always going to have players injured, that's just the reality. Outside of injury, and outside of extreme / unforeseen circumstances, the expectation is (quite rightly) that the rest of the squad is available to play matches. This is why, in literally any other league of this sport, and any other sport in fact, this idea would be laughed out of the room as ridiculous. This is how competitive integrity is maintained.
Players are being taken away from their clubs, outside of a test window, to go play absolutely nothing fixtures in SA. If Dan McFarland wanted to pick Stewart Moore against Leinster he cannot, because Stewart Moore is away playing low-level nothing matches on the other side of the world. If Dan McFarland decided he wanted to play Nathan Doak, he cannot for the same reason. This is not only incredibly stupid, but it's very disrespectful.
This is worse than anything the WRU have ever done. It's worse than the 4th test in the Autumn. This is, IMO, the clearest indication we have ever seen that the powers that be do not care whatsoever about the URC. The competition is treated with disdain, it's just there to fill the weeks in.
Looking at this squad I’m now thinking that this tour is being done purely to get game time into a 3 or 4 of the squad, mainly Frawley, Blade and Balacoune.
I think Blade may well be ahead of Casey come the WC and I think the Ireland Management now see Frawley as Sexton’s long term successor, this is a way for them to push that process on quicker than just leaving their development to the provinces and on the fringes of the Ireland match day squads.
If Frawley performs any way well on this tour he’ll be well up the pecking order come the AI’s.
2 players who saw a grand total of 4 minutes in that final between them.
Leinster really used their bench very very poorly in that final.
O'Gara and La Rochelle really taught the Leinster management a lesson with his superior use of the bench.
If after this Tour Frawley comes back having nailed down the 3rd choice Irish outhalf Jersey. Then the tour is nearly justified for that one reason alone.. similarly if Doak shows he can manage the game plan at 9 or joe Mccarthy or max Deegan show they can be pack leader.
There are many positives Ireland can gain from this tour.
Its not perfect by any means but covid hampered the last 2 years and this sort of a tour would have been held then under normal circumstances.
Is Harry Byrne still injured? The rationale for him going on this jamboree would be very similar to Baloucoune given they have both missed a lot of rugby in the past year.
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