I'm suspecting that the captain will be chosen when people get together.
The captain has to emerge rather than be chosen in this (which is a bit of a scratch squad).
I've got a feeling based on Easterby's comment that Frawley is going to be given a chance to establish himself as a leader. If he does he might be in the running for captain.
Potentially fascinating to see how the leadership group takes shape here with no veterans in the group. Balacoune I'd guess is part of that group, along with say Frawley, Blade, McCarthy, Prendergast and a few others. Who will be captain?
Ryan Baird would be ahead of McCarthy too imo.
Frawley also I'd rate as a possibility for the strongest 23. There's a few people who can get ahead of him as the outside back cover and he may only be 4th choice at 10. He may be higher up in Leinster at 10.
Interesting to see Esterby's comments
"We feel Frawls has the potential to lead in a number of different positions. Obviously, he has played 12 a fair bit for Leinster but we see him, which he did in the Maori weeks, as being a guy who can lead from the front at 10, and lead a week.
"He'll be asked in the next few weeks to do a slightly different role to what he did in New Zealand because he had lots of senior players around him. We feel he has the ability to step up and front the week, lead the week, as someone like at the extreme, Johnny Sexton does week in, week out and has done for a number of years.
"Giving those players like Frawls the opportunity to put himself at the forefront of a week, lead it, take the team to a performance at the weekend in that position at 10, is crucial for us. We're still finding out a little bit about Frawls and the way he can play.
"You can see that when they're playing for their provinces in the URC but it is slightly different and there's not a huge difference, but there is a difference when you have them in your environment across a couple of weeks period. Hopefully, we can benefit from that time and Frawls can benefit from that time when he goes back into Leinster after this trip."
https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2022/0914/1323410-easterby-wary-of-compromises-over-emerging-ireland/
McCarthy is more like a possible for 23 for Leinster, they have Ryan, Moloney and Jenkins.
Would this be a fair reflection of the core players the various Provinces are losing, with the omissions being outside the strongest 23? (Fans of other provinces can keep me honest here).
To be fair, at the time this was announced, there was a nod to the Māori game. Part of the reason I was heavily critical of it is because that could’ve meant guys like Casey, Coombes, Hume and Timoney being selected.
Given it is going ahead, I think they’ve gotten the selections pretty right. But I can still understand why some, from a Provincial point of view, might well be critical, especially when it’s someone like Baloucoune going, who we know can be a game changer on his own.
And I’d amend your last sentence as follows, that the potential benefits [for Ireland] here far outweigh any drawbacks [for the Provinces]. But lets not pretend there aren’t drawbacks for the Provinces.
Leinster are the most affected during genuine international windows. That's why we have international windows to begin with, and why they have taken steps to stop playing club games during these windows.
Leinster are absolutely not the most affected by this tour. The affect on Leinster is pretty inconsequential, which is why I think you can't see the issue for others. You are losing a bunch of players who have not got a sniff of your first team, and the few first teamers you are losing are in positions where you have incredible depth.
Stockdale might be available, or he might not. Same for Lowry. Same for Hume. Same for McCloskey. Any one of them could get crocked on Saturday.
Leinster won in Ravenhill in March 2021, the season before last. It's not exactly unheard of.
Not getting into the original discussion that prompted this post but there's a lot to be said for representation through whatever vectors apply. I hate to see Ireland squads without any players from Connacht for example, same goes if there was an Irish squad or team that didn't have players from any of the other provinces. Most people on here aren't thrilled when Leinster make up 12 or 13 starters for Ireland, and for good reason. I don't think it merits some kind of quota system but it does indicate that something isn't working at the grassroots and development level when we see that. Same goes for working class kids, state school kids and newer Irish kids. It's no good for the game if young players can't see themselves making the team.
Listening to Easterby at the squad announcement, it's clear this isn't about wins or performances (although I'd imagine you wouldn't want to look poor against those teams). It's literally about prepping these players to be able to play the way Ireland want and be familiar with the systems at the drop of a hat if they have to be called up. These are extended training runs where Ireland and the provinces are only providing half the players.
In the Autumn nations, Timoney got a call on a Saturday morning to come down and okay a test that night and was able to, because he had just been sent home from the extended training squad. They want to widen the pool of players able to do that, and have a look at potential bolters.
There is no good time of year for that to happen. It'll be a very tight table again this year.
Selective reality again. Leinster are generally more affected than any other province when it comes to International call ups. Yes they have more depth than the other provinces but they contribute the highest numbers by a long way.
There is a certain Jacob Stockdale who might put his hand up for most important winger for Ulster. He will be available, along with Lowry, Hume & McCloskey. It’s not like Ulster are lacking in quality backs. They arguably have far more depth there than Leinster.
When was the last time Leinster won in Ravenhill? That’s just a complete and utter red Herring.
Sorry but you're still not getting this, you're still looking at it through your blue glasses where the players you have lost are either not within a sniff of your first team, or are easily replaced thanks to your massive depth chart. Unfortunately for other provinces this is not the case.
You keep saying "sure the internationals are back". So what? There is no guarantee that the internationals will be available to play in both affected games. Any of them could get injured. This is why we have a squad of more than 23 players.
Baloucoune is probably Ulster's best winger right now. Our best winger is unavailable because of this ridiculous tour.
Our 2nd and 3rd choice 9 are unavailable because of this tour. Just ponder that for a second.
We have to go into a game against the best team in the league, but can't pick from a full deck of fit players, because the IRFU decided to arbitrarily take a bunch of them away. If this doesn't sound absolutely stupid to you then I think you're a lost cause!
There is no benefit whatsoever here for provinces. They are being shat on.
Jackman seems to agree with me, it's interesting to see the perspective of someone who has actually coached at ProWhatever level. A few quotes:
RTÉ Rugby analyst Bernard Jackman has branded the upcoming Emerging Ireland tour of South Africa as a "terrible idea", citing both the timing of the venture and the poor quality of the opposition involved.
I think it sends the wrong message to the provincial coaches of where they stand in the pecking order.
The URC is getting stronger. Points are going to count for a lot, early doors. To lose some of your key players, particularly when some of the international players are not going to be back into full swing, could lose provincial coaches points. That could potentially cost them jobs, long-term.
But given how poor the opposition are, and the timing of it, I think they'd be better off playing for their province in a URC game against the Sharks or the Bulls or Glasgow or Edinburgh.
Realistically, what can we find out? If Ciaran Frawley has a stormer against the Griquas, what's it worth?
Junket? You really are impossible to discuss things with at times. The fact that you believe this is a junket, shows exactly how unreasonable your position is.
Yes there will be disruption but not significant. This was being framed as disastrous decision. That will hugely impact on the provinces competitiveness. That could affect results. Given the squad announcement and the fact the full internationals are available. That just isn’t true at all.
The potential benefits here far outweigh any drawbacks.
Can't find the full squad, but they've listed the 22 for the Georgia game here:
Which had 2 Munster developed players in the 22; so 9.1% to use your previous metric.
Similar to Crowley and Ben Healy, he's been picked ahead of a guy who would've been a candidate for this tour, and is notionally behind at his Province, in Keynan Knox.
Huge season for both Knox and Salanoa, there's a first choice provincial berth there for the taking.
Baloucoune as you mention, but Connacht are probably most impacted losing Prendergast and Blade from their starting 15. Kendellen and/or Hodnett are in that conversation too (with new coaches caveats etc.).
But there are a number of players that are in and around a teams strongest 23 too like Barron, Ahern, Doak, McIlroy, Frawley and McCarthy.
Man the negativity around here can be unbearable at times.
Really looking forward to this - an opportunity to see something different and hopefully an opportunity to further the development of some international prospects.
Salanoa is an interesting one. He fits the mould of athletic, powerful and dynamic forward Farrell is looking for, so I suppose his selection shouldn't come as a surprise.
Okay, fair enough 😁
It'd be interesting to see the 2013 squad, if anyone can find it.
To be fair, I didn't say "fixed", I said "improved". And I think the %'s you've spelled out are misleading.
For example: In 2014 they had 9 out of 26 (34.6%). But 3 of those 9 players didn't come through the Munster development pathways. Similarly in 2015, 1 of the 6 wasn't Munster developed.
In 2014 they had 9 out of 26 (34.6%).
If you look at the current squad Salonoa and Frisch aren't Munster developed, but Flannery is so that's 9 out of 35. So the actual figures we're looking at are:
2014: 6 out of 26 = 23.1%
2015: 5 out of 27 = 18.5%
2022: 9 out of 35 = 25.7%
Which is, like I said, improvement.
The squad isn't representative at all at the moment. It should be 50% women, 10% gays, and it should mirror the demographics for race, religion, et cetera.
Let's see a good age range; some babies, some children, teenages, adults and older people.
And no elite sportspeople. How much of the population is elite sportspeople? Hardly any.
Which of those players would start ahead of the players they have available? Apart from baloucoune. I can’t think of one. That’s what I mean by little disruption.
The proof of the pudding and all that will be in the results.
I don't think I buy the arguement that these lads are better off playing URC than in this. Take a guy like Scott Penney for example - he's been a killing it at the start of the URC for three or four years at this stage. Every time the same thing happens - he plays, he gets on a roll, then the likes of JVDF, Connors, and (back then) Leave return to push him to the back of the queue. He gets a few performances against the lower cannon fodder teams, scores a few tries, and people cry about why he isn't going to any higher places.
This is the kind of opportunity a guy like him needs. Not to be walking over Ospreys and Treviso for the fifth year running - but rather to get into an Irish camp and have a guy like Mike Catt reporting back to Andy Farrell saying "Wow, Scott really excelled in POMs wide role in open play/JVDFs quasi-scrumhalf role off lineouts/etc". Something that makes them go "let's have another look at this fella".
That's far more valuable than another few rounds of URC before fading into obscurity when the internationals return.
I agree with Balacoune travelling too. The guy has missed out on nearly every Irish squad since last Summer due to injury - this is a great time for him to get into camp and learn his roles off plays, positioning in structured attack (getting carrying infield of nine like Lowe and Hansen), etc. Now's as good a time as any to get him up to speed, and he'll be in the best place to make an impact come Autumn Internationals or the Kiwi A game. Ulster fans might not like it, but it's best for Robert and it's best for Ireland.
We all know why you singled Illo out. And it had nothing to do with his background or where he went to school. So stop pretending.
He's a privately educated south Dublin schoolboy born and raised in Dublin, so if anything, he's the opposite to "representation of all the communities in Ireland"
I'm happy to see him there, because he's a good young rugby player. That should be it.
I feel for Ben Healy. I think he was sold a dummy at his co tract negotiations. He was tapped up by Glasgow and he's Scottish qualified. So Ireland brought him to some 6N training camps and he signed with munster and he hadn't been in the Ireland squads since then.
Think the Scotland thing is overblown, but he was never in any Ireland squads afaik.
I suppose I shouldn't generalise too much. But there isn't a culture of excellence and an expectation that players will develop into frontline internationals in Munster at the moment. In a team sport environment that counts.
Ahern looks like a sure thing - if he can stay fit. Crowley has star quality. He has players ahead of him at Munster, but maybe that won't matter too much if Farrell likes what he sees. Wycherley and one of Kendellen and Hodnett could make it, but the competition is stiff in their positions.
I'm a little surprised Campbell didn't make this tour.
I'm not sure you can gauge from 10 out of 35 that Munster's development pathways have been fixed. I think their current representation is roughly in line with previous Emerging Ireland squads. They have 10 out of 35 in 2022 (28.6% of the overall squad)
In 2014 they had 9 out of 26 (34.6%)
In 2015 they had 6 out of 27 (22.2%)
I can't find details of the squad for the 2013 Tbilisi Cup.
27 November 2009: Ireland A 31–0 Argentina Jaguars, Tallaght Stadium, Tallaght, Att. 4,016[71]
31 January 2010: England Saxons 17–13 Ireland A, Recreation Ground, Bath[72]
5 February 2010: Ireland Wolfhounds 34–19 Scotland A, Ravenhill, Belfast, Att. 2,746[73][74]
28 January 2011: Scotland A 32–12 Ireland Wolfhounds, Netherdale[75]
4 February 2011: Ireland Wolfhounds 20–11 England Saxons, Ravenhill, Belfast, Att. 2,000[76]
28 January 2012: England Saxons 23–17 Ireland Wolfhounds, Sandy Park, Exeter[77]
16 November 2012: Ireland XV 53–0 Fiji, Thomond Park, Limerick, Att. 17,126[78]
25 January 2013: Ireland Wolfhounds 10–14 England Saxons, Galway Sportsground, Galway[79]
25 January 2014: England Saxons 8–14 Ireland Wolfhounds, Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester[80]
30 January 2015: Ireland Wolfhounds 9–18 England Saxons, Musgrave Park, Cork, Att. 8,200[81][82]
from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_Wolfhounds
Good find. So since 2010 there's been 2 non-test games in Belfast, 1 in Limerick, 1 in Galway and 1 in Cork. And none in over 7-and-a-half years.
When you consider the number of Test games played in Dublin since then (and with the Aviva agreement, is completely fair enough) I can understand why some may be disappointed this isn't going ahead outside of Dublin, it'd seem an ideal candidate.
(And with Munster having the Maori All Blacks, and now SA visit in that time, Ravenhill would've made sense to me).
Hehe
