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Lateral hazard unplayable lie

josephp

Playing a par three from the tee my ball entered a lateral water hazard in front of the green. I declared a provisional ball and took relief from the entry point landing beside the pin. On approaching the green I found my original ball in the far side of the same hazard in an unplayable lie!.. do I have to replay the original ball back where the provisional ball was played from or go with the provisional ball and what is the penalty?

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Accepted answers

Seve OB

You are not allowed to play a provisional ball if you believe your ball may be lost in a hazard.

slave1

I'm no rules expert but AFAIK you can't play a provisional ball if you see your ball enter (and not exit) a hazard, so that second ball is now the ball in play.

Completely open to correction

Seve OB

18.3

Provisional Ball

When Provisional Ball Is Allowed

If your ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time you may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance.

But if you are aware that the only possible place your original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed and a ball played from where the previous stroke was made becomes your ball in playunder penalty of stroke and distance.

josephp

Thanks seviob..seems to be sensible 👍

Brendan Bendar

Far as I know once you put the second ball in I play after taking the penalty drop it then becomes the ball ‘in play’ and the first ball is out of play if it is subsequently found .

paulos53

This would be my interpretation.

Option 1: After hitting your tee shot, it is Known or Virtually Certain that the ball is in the penalty area. i.e. it is at least 95% certain.

In that case you are entitled to take relief from the penalty area for 1 penalty shot. (Note that taking a provisional it not an option).

At this point your original ball is out of play, even when found afterwards. You should complete the hole with the dropped ball

Option 2: It is not 95% certain that the ball was in the penalty area.

In this case the ball was dropped in an incorrect spot. If there was a reasonable chance that your ball was lost outside the penalty area then your only option was to play a 3rd shot from the tee.

Having played the dropped ball from the wrong place, you incurred a 2 shot penalty. The original ball is now out of play.

You then need to return to the tee and play your 5th shot from there

All comments

Seve OB

You are not allowed to play a provisional ball if you believe your ball may be lost in a hazard.

slave1

I'm no rules expert but AFAIK you can't play a provisional ball if you see your ball enter (and not exit) a hazard, so that second ball is now the ball in play.

Completely open to correction

callaway92

Just to make sure here - You teed off and assumed the ball went into the water. You walked down to the water, dropped a ball and before playing it you found your original ball?

Can you even drop a ball and call it a provisional? If you were of the assumption it was in the water it wouldn't be a provisional. A provisional would be played from the tee box again if you get me

Anyway, I think it's a case of until you play your new ball anywhere beyond where you thought your original ball was, your original ball can still be played

Seve OB

18.3

Provisional Ball

When Provisional Ball Is Allowed

If your ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time you may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance.

josephp

Thanks seviob..seems to be sensible 👍

josephp

Hi Callaway 92..thanks for that..played the "provisional" ball before I found the original so looks like the ball I played under relief became the ball in play ..which is not what I did !!ouch !

lettuce97

If you believe you're certain the ball is in the hazard and take a drop, but then find the original outside the hazard after you've played the drop (say it bounced off a stone while you weren't looking!) - what happens then?

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119591333#Comment_119591333

I think New ball is in play ….. but not entirely sure as you would also have played it from the wrong place so might even be another shot penalty

Brendan Bendar

Far as I know once you put the second ball in I play after taking the penalty drop it then becomes the ball ‘in play’ and the first ball is out of play if it is subsequently found .

paulos53

This would be my interpretation.

Option 1: After hitting your tee shot, it is Known or Virtually Certain that the ball is in the penalty area. i.e. it is at least 95% certain.

In that case you are entitled to take relief from the penalty area for 1 penalty shot. (Note that taking a provisional it not an option).

At this point your original ball is out of play, even when found afterwards. You should complete the hole with the dropped ball

Option 2: It is not 95% certain that the ball was in the penalty area.

In this case the ball was dropped in an incorrect spot. If there was a reasonable chance that your ball was lost outside the penalty area then your only option was to play a 3rd shot from the tee.

Having played the dropped ball from the wrong place, you incurred a 2 shot penalty. The original ball is now out of play.

You then need to return to the tee and play your 5th shot from there

dan_ep82

My old club had a par3 with a water hazard that was difficult to see if it carried with the reeds blocking the front of the green.

Provisional ball was not allowed. It was made clear it was a penalty drop on the tee and a retake. You had to walk over and see if it stayed up. If you hit a second ball, that was the ball in play, whether you found your original ball outside the hazard or playable from inside it.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592420#Comment_119592420

Clubs allowed now to bring in a local rule to allow provisional ball be played in cases like this.

model rule 8B3

B-3

Provisional Ball for Ball in a Penalty Area

Purpose. Under Rule 18.3

, a player is not allowed to play a ball provisionally if it is known or virtually certain that his or her ball is in a penalty area.

But in unusual cases, the size, shape or location of a penalty area may be such that:

The player cannot see whether the ball is in the penalty area,
It would unreasonably delay play if the player had to go forward to look for the ball before returning to play another ball under penalty of stroke and distance, and
If the original ball is not found, it would be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the penalty area.

For such situations, to save time a Committee may choose to modify Rule 18.3

Rule 18.3a
is modified to allow the player to play a ball provisionally under Rule 17.1d(1)
, Rule 17.1d(2)
or, for a red penalty area, Rule 17.1d(3)
.
Rules 18.3b
and 18.3c
are modified to state when such a provisional ball must or may be played or abandoned, as stated in the Model Local Rule.

Model Local Rule B-3

"If a player does not know whether his or her ball is in the penalty area [identify location], the player may play a provisional ball under Rule 18.3

, which is modified in this way:

In playing the provisional ball, the player may use the stroke-and-distance relief option (see Rule 17.1d(1)

, the back-on-the-line relief option (see Rule 17.1d(2)

) or, if it is a red penalty area, the lateral relief option (see Rule 17.1d(3)

). If a dropping zone (see Model Local Rule E-1) is available for this penalty area, the player may also use that relief option.

Once the player has played a provisional ballunder this Rule, he or she may not use any further options under Rule 17.1

in relation to the original ball.

In deciding when that provisional ballbecomes the player's ball in play or if it must or may be abandoned, Rule 18.3c(2)

and 18.3c(3)

apply except that:

When Original Ball Is Found in Penalty Area Within Three-Minute Search Time. The player may choose either to:
- Continue to play the original ball as it lies in the penalty area, in which case the provisional ball must not be played. All strokes with that provisional ballbefore it was abandoned (including strokes made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count, or
- Continue to play the provisional ball in which case the original ball must not be played.
When Original Ball Is Not Found Within Three-Minute Search Time or Is Known or Virtually Certain to Be in Penalty Area. The provisional ball becomes the player's ball in play.

Penalty for Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty."

dan_ep82

Any idea when that was brought in? I'd 100% agree with this solely on the fact it speeds play up on a slow hole.

Brendan Bendar

I think it was brought in around the same time as the flagstick rules.

Its a local rule and the penalty areas need to be identified it would appear, ie doesn’t apply to every penalty area.

Designed as another poster said to speed up play.