Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589522#Comment_119589522

Had it been a SF-FF government, you would have voted for that too.

Not sure what your point is after that.

I have said more than once, that 'rightly or wrongly' the view is out there and FF have responded it to it in such a way that IMO they won't want to be seen to do it again. There are also other reasons why they won't be keen to ally or coalesce with FG.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589550#Comment_119589550

I wouldn't have voted for a SF-FF government, but I would have accepted that we, the people, would have voted for a SF-FF government, and that it was a perfectly acceptable democratic outcome. That is where we differ.

Yes, you have said that the view is out there, and I have explained why such a view is both subversive and anti-democratic.

FF won't go into government as a junior party to anyone. Rotating Taoiseach, equal Ministries, that is the price they will demand. If SF twice their size give them that, SF will look weak. FG, which I expect to be a slightly bigger party, could afford to be magnaminous, particularly if they get more on policy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589647#Comment_119589647

How often do I have to say it, your view, my view, podge's view of that view is irrelevant.

The fact is IMO it is having an effect on FF positioning and will influence what they do after the next GE.

This IMO will aid SF in forming a government.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588659#Comment_119588659

Being interested in other views is the first task of compromise.

How does this fit with FG refusing to talk to SF or MM announcing he wouldn't go in to coalition with FG because the country wanted change?

Its obvious that the historic unprecedented partnership of FF and FG was more to do with maintaining power than anything else. It was 'do we want to be in government and how do we want to go about it?'.

I would imagine there was a lot of disappointment in all parties, including FG, when this coalition was announced.

I expect MM to retire and then we don't know what will happen. There are people who will vote for their party regardless, but the real king makers are the floating voters.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589679#Comment_119589679

It isn't a matter of opinion as to whether a particular view is undemocratic or subversive, it is a matter of fact. If you express a view that a democratically elected government doesn't have a mandate, then you are expressing an undemocratic view. That someone might choose to agree with that view or not is a matter of their opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that the view itself is undemocratic.

To use another example, Trump's view that he won the election is undemocratic, but you are free to agree with him, just as you are free to agree with the undemocratic opinion that this government doesn't have a democratic mandate.

I would never impinge on anyone's right to agree with an opinion, no matter how bizarre, how factually wrong or undemocratic that opinion is.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589859#Comment_119589859

The coalition has a mandate. The claim was the specific make up of a FF/FG/Green government was chosen by the public. If that's the case does that mean SF, Lab, SD etc. don't? If they went FF/FG/SD would it mean the Greens didn't have a mandate? Every elected person has a democratic mandate, the make up of a government isn't decided by the public. Otherwise FF/FG/Green would have been on the ballot as an option.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589859#Comment_119589859

FG and FF's view that SF are unfit for government is contested, the polls are showing that. Particularly by a younger cohort that FF cannot afford to lose. FG seem to be happy to appeal to an older vote and allow the haemorrhaging of it's erstwhile younger voter. That is their own business.

All factors in a forthcoming GE. If we are discussing how SF will form a government, those factors are in play.

That's if we are discussing the topic and not our own views.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589925#Comment_119589925

FG and FF's view that SF are unfit for government is not what I was saying. In fact, nobody has mentioned that. Your response is bizarre.

I was pointing out that a view that the current government lacks a democratic mandate is both undemocratic and subversive, as well as being untrue.

Why are you introducing a strawman argument at this point?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589903#Comment_119589903

I think you are mixed up. Nobody made the claim that the specific make-up of a FF/FG/Green government was chosen by the public.

Instead, the subversive, untrue and undemocratic view that this government lacks a democratic mandate has been claimed to be out there, and to be influencing FF, and certain posters have equivocated on whether they support that view.

I take it from your post that you agree with me that the current coalition have a democratic mandate and that any views to the contrary are incorrect.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589970#Comment_119589970

Who said the 'current government lacks a mandate', I never said that was the view.

I said the view was that FF and FG conspired to lock a party out of power or to hold onto it themselves. They are entitled to do that, but they are also entitled to be criticised for it.

I am not aware of many who hold the view that the government 'lack a mandate'.

Are you trying too hard to find something 'subversive' maybe?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590019#Comment_119590019

THe only people who think FF/FG conspired to lock out a party is SF. The only party who didn't manage to get a single other party to agree terms with them in terms of a coalition. Even PBP came out and pleaded with them to sit down and discuss

Now you can of course blame very other party in Rep of Ireland for not agreeing terms with SF, or you can look at SF and ask what the hell is going on?

Also, no other party in the North are working with SF, is that another case of every party v SF?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590089#Comment_119590089

Just read the first sentence tbh.

SF votes are as valuable as yours. They have 36% and rising in the polls.

That is having an effect on the hearts and minds of FF. To say otherwise is delusional.

There is no future for FF in a FF FG coalition.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119584813#Comment_119584813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590019#Comment_119590019

Whether you describe it as conspiring to lock a party out of power or that the handling of the democratic decision of the electorate was an issue, you are expressing a view that is undemocratic and untrue, with the hint of subversion of democracy in it. Those are only two of the many ways in which you have attempted to paint the democratic outcome as something other than democratic.

The current government reflects the democratic will of the people. End of. A narrative as being peddled that it is anything other than a normal democratic outcome for a Western democracy is a Trumpian narrative that is untrue, undemocratic and subversive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590192#Comment_119590192

That's your opinion...so what?

Unless you are going to round up these subversives for re-education, it's of no import what you think of it.

The view is there and exists. And I am discussing it's impact.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589155#Comment_119589155

So you, a leading member of SF don't know what is their strategy for the next election - an election that could be called at a moments notice if the coalition lose a supporter!

You can't even answer the fundamental question - whether they are running enough candidates, which is central as to whether they actually want to go into Gov or not.

Seriously?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590253#Comment_119590253

a leading member of SF

😁😁 'Leading'? Is that higher than a 'bot'? 😁

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588972#Comment_119588972

You form a government by campaigning for an overall majority. If you get close to it, you can bribe/ buy out the votes of a few independents.

What's so hard to understand.

Other parties do not care for and will not be railroaded into coalitions with SF.

Maybe then you can rescind the GFA and use a majority in NI to force your views onto the populace at large.

That is the strategy and overall aim I think???

Supercell

FF are a populist party, always have been, SF are a populist party, its obvious these two will get into bed together and destroy the countries finances again circa the Haughey and Bertie years.

The voting population of Ireland have shown time and again they only care about their pocket today, next year is a different land and once again they will vote accordingly. I wish it wasn't so, but in my 51 years on this earth its always been so with very few exceptions - the "Tallaght Strategy" being pretty much the only time I can recall that we put on our big boy pants and actually did the right thing without the likes of the ECB forcing us too.

I wish there was a "remind me of this post on x date" function on boards.ie because some here will vilify me for saying this but the country will vote in due course and I'll either have to eat crow or not.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589394#Comment_119589394

Here is mainstream media with the same view in reverse.

That is not the same view, even you admit that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590311#Comment_119590311

FF have said they will discuss a coalition.

It will come down to the 'programme for government' as it always does.

Nobody will be railroaded, calm down.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590317#Comment_119590317

It's a mainstream journalist telling FF and FG to do what those with 'the view' I outlined believe happened.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590349#Comment_119590349

Well you haven't denied what is the overall SF objective - to be in control of power in both the Republic and NI.

It's a reasonable objective on paper but one that many a voter both down south and up north is very wary of.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119589990#Comment_119589990

I agree they have a mandate, the form the government took was a decision made by the parties. Gino from PBP has as much a mandate as Micheal Martin.

The theme seems to be that people who voted FF or FG in previous elections but SF in the last and new first time voters who went with SF, are somehow duped or part of a revolt. Its a nonsense. If FF hammered every other party in the next election we wouldn't be hearing this kind of thing. What any genuine public representatives should be looking at is their policy decisions which led to SF going from averaging 3/5% to 30+.

Most of us want to leave the crises behind and will back any party or parties capable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590372#Comment_119590372

Be alright Furze.

I'm sure there will be plenty that will throw their hats in the ring to lead a UI.

All of them will have a right to be the main party and I'm sure they won't have the support of all.

[Deleted User]

Given SF's interest in a united ireland (not that I'm opposed) you'd have to wonder if they've considered the fact that if it happens, the DUP will likely be the king makers and could well get into power more often than SF

Sleepy

Let's face it, Fianna Fail's best hope for the next election (outside of an unrealistic dream of an overall majority or being the senior party in a coalition themselves) is for Sinn Fein to form a government with a motley crew of the left. That way when that coalition collapses, the floating voters who abandon Sinn Fein for under-delivering (which is inevitable given the populist rhetoric which has Sinn Fein doing so well in the polls) will either stay home on election day or may be woo'd back to Fianna Fail's less grandiose form of populism.

There may be some in the party (Éamon Ó Cuív and the like) who would consider a power-sharing arrangement with Sinn Fein akin to what they currently have with Fine Gael but I'm not convinced they represent a majority of the party and Sinn Fein will need to change their approach to win over a majority (along the lines I alluded to already i.e. demonstrating that they're willing and able to compromise). Even then, it'll be a hard sell to many, if not most, in Fianna Fail as going into government with Sinn Fein is a massive risk for them given the disdain their core voters have for the "other" Republican Party, Sinn Fein's lack of experience in government, the inevitability of them under-delivering on their promises and the likelihood they'll try to blame their coalition partner for that.

There may be no future for FF in a FF/FG coalition, but I'm not convinced there's one for them in a FF/SF coalition either...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590489#Comment_119590489

If that's the way it works out so be it. I hope all views find representation. I guarantee you if a UI looks imminent FF and even FG will be tripping over themselves to try take ownership. SF are the only party who put it up front currently.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590560#Comment_119590560

You have made a good point, the only party that FF members hate more than FG is SF.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119590489#Comment_119590489

I'm sure they have. Who could have missed the DUP grooming FG and vice versa at party conference. The DUP are no fools.