Mod- Thread title updated to reflect what has actually happened, and the op's text link has been turned into a working link
Lazy effort op, don't do it again
Threadbanned
john123470
The 1670s
Honestly don't think this guy would feel out of place at a witch trial
Correct me if I'm wrong, feel free but is it not simply a case of the school acting to protect a child being singled out and bullied by an adult with an opposing viewpoint?
Threadban lifted following discussion with poster
It is commonplace in Christian thinking to claim that gods law trumps civil law. We hear less of it in Ireland nowadays but I think it would be fair to say that when said law directed the state we were a shambles which ruined not just lives but generations of lives.
The huge questions behind the entire human tragedy that is this case are to do with the state continuing to privilege denominational schools and through its legislation (Mr Michael Woods 1998) ensure their characteristic spirit has expression formally in school policy and documents. Would we be in this situation today if Mr Burke looked around the job opportunities for teachers and saw that every school had the same ethos of equality, decency and a formal rejection of the claims of any religion to dictate its approach to students? No. He would by his own statements have had to recognize he was self disqualifying.
And if you argue that we already have the above then you need to accept that religious patronage has had its day and that ethos, characteristic spirit etc are meaningless and need to go to ensure no religion believes it has a derogation from the demands of equality and decency. There are many vested interests who desperately want the veil kept firmly closed on all of this.
But this remains a human tragedy and a vulnerable student is the focus: their good and their prospering, not agendas and not abstractions.
If it were the 1670s, he'd be the one with the biggest pitchfork.
On a never-ending continuum. So gender is everything and anything. Hardly realistically
Partially , but it's also about a teacher refusing to follow school policy, particularly their disciplinary policy.
He was suspended and refused to acknowledge that suspension and kept coming to the school causing disruption which has eventually ended up with him in Prison for contempt of court for ignoring a court order to stay away from school property until his suspension is resolved.
if you think they are wrong then please contact them and tell them where they have made mistakes.
I would support it but I'd equally expect them to not behave like a dick to other people that don't align with their world view.
So, you'd approve of discrimination in the interview process based upon religious beliefs? Were you ever a former employee of the RUC up north? ;)
It's not bullying. If a teacher doesn't want to go along with games like this they shouldn't be forced to. It's not in their contract to do so. Disrespectful - it's a two way street, it's equally disrespectful to the teacher to "expect" them to play the game.
You can bet some crowd are already in the ear of Helen McEntee to draft something along those lines, and knowing her form and the form of many in FG they'd run with it.
Agreed. Burke is a twat for his behaviour at that dinner event. Prior to that he was within the realm of reasonable to politely refuse to engage in pronouns. If only he had been calm but stern, but alas he wasn't and is a twat.
I think that becomes personal at this point. And by that, I mean the personal relationship with the student. Refusal to use pronouns - even if upheld by the school - is still going to lose him respect with the student. And possibly a large portion of the student body.
So gender is about reinforcing stereotypes. Men don't talk and women do. Men drink beer and women drink wine. Women are nurturing and wear high heels whereas sex is all about biology.
I though society had moved past rigid roles for men and women, but the argument in favour of transgenderism seems to be that we haven't and can't move away from fixed positions in society for men and women.
I find it interesting that most of the "fixed role" thinking comes from the more conservative section of society who are also opposed to transgenderism and the liberal parts of society argue that men and women are equal and should be treated equally also argue that people can feel they are one gender or the other.
That would be a ridiculous kind of quantification. You could show them a pic of a woman and they could be thinking of a big giant penis for all you know.
Indeed.
Wilsons have policies on admission and anti bullying that are specificially trans inclusive.
Not really.
Its a case of a teacher opposing a schools decision to agree to a request by a pupil and their parents that the pupil be addressed by a new name and referred to with they/them pronouns. The teacher never taught this pupil but in his opposition he: spoke against the issue publicly, repeatedly brought up the issue with the Principal publicly and then having been suspended repeatedly refusing to leave the premises.
I cant agree with that. If Patrick requests to be called Patricia and the teacher refuses to address Patricia as Patricia then in my view that is disrespectful and bullying.
There do seem to be some differing reports relating to what led to the suspension, particularly the 'school event' where he voiced his disagreement, some reports (unknown reliability like the all really) suggest he pointed the child out or at least their request, thereby identifying them to the crowd present, any idea if that was the case?
There are other reports (numerous) of him shouting or 'loudly' questioning the principal as she moved through the room.
Once the twitter brigade pick up on things the fog descends.
So, you'd approve of discrimination in the interview process based upon religious beliefs? Were you ever a former employee of the RUC up north?
Couldn't give a flying fúck about anyone's beliefs.
But if I am hiring for a job, especially one that involves children I would be doing my due diligence.
i.e. don't hire manky scummy cúnts.
This is getting embarrassing!
Perhaps there is a small chance Burke would have kept his opinions quieter if this absurd demand wasn't placed in front of him (though judging from his OTT behaviour that may be a very small chance indeed).
The second half of your statement - oh Lord! Tolerance and acceptance much? take a look in the mirror. No doubt the opposite of the groups you describe pontificate "follow the science" and yet on the other hand, like some in this thread, insist "a man can be a woman"!!! The mental gymnastics are amusing to follow.
The Staff were told of the childs wishes and asked to comply with those wishes , as they are obligated to do under the Equality act.
Eh, sorry but the rest of your post is meaningless if your qualifying it with this blatant misinformation.
The child hasn't legally changed gender, then there is no obligation on anyone to "comply with those wishes"
No more than if you wanted to identify as a donkey tomorrow, there is no legal obligation for the rest of Ireland to "comply".
That would be because a donkey isn't protected under the equality act.
However a human being is protected under that act, so you are legally obliged to treat them the same as every other human regardless of the Gender , Sexuality or Race.
Refusing to respect their gender preference is a breach of the Equality act and that is how the school chose to interpret it in their direction to their staff.
If Enoch Burke didn't like that, he had many infinitely better ways to address his issues than the manner in which he chose to do so.
Gender PREFERENCE? You need to be taught the basics of human anatomy. Gender is not a matter of preference. But of fact.
I don't think he named the child or if the specific child was present at the event , but certainly the majority of Students were there along with staff , parents etc. and he explicitly discussed that there was a transgender pupil in the school and that he was being asked to respect their decision etc.
So everyone present was made abundantly aware of the existence of a transgender pupil (if they didn't already know , it's a small enough school so they all probably knew already) and that he, Enoch Burke was grossly offended by the presence of the child and their request for a bit of respect and human decency.
You're confusing Gender and Sex - They are different things as has been pointed out , including lots of supporting evidence on multiple occasions already in this thread.
There have also been multiple posts detailing previous uses of the Equality Act protecting Transgender people from discrimination.
Like I said , you don't have to like it , but as long as it's the law of the land you have to comply with it.
So below is from https://teni.ie/gender-recognition/
On July 15th 2015, the Irish Government passed the Gender Recognition Act. Gender recognition legislation provides a process enabling trans people to achieve full legal recognition of their preferred gender and allows for the acquisition of a new birth certificate that reflects this change.
& on the same page.
In March 1993, Lydia Foy wrote to the Irish Registrar General seeking a new birth certificate showing her female gender.
But Birth certs and passports only list Sex. not gender. So are they wrong or are you wrong. Sex, as has been pointed out, is a fact, your male or Female?
Also have seen al lot on "Assigning gender @ birth" but again, from your definition or understanding, that's not Gender. Its sex that assigned at birth.
The law of the land says Sex and gender are the same. else they would have a different section on the birth cert for GENDER and one for SEX?
So please clarify!
Have you come across many newborns able to express preferences yourself, then?
The point about a whole school policy is that the media focus on whether a teacher teaches a particular pupil or not isn’t as crucial as might seem. Or as possible to be used as a basis for compromise. As bad as it already is it would be worse if the teacher was teaching the particular student.
Mr Burke’s contention from what I have read (this is not the legal basis for the injunction) is that any policy that violates the ethos and characteristic spirit of the school cannot stand. An analogy: a law may be a law until it found to be unconstitutional.
It seems the Burkes' vision of paradise is just them, and Jesus - although I'm not certain if Jesus would meet their criteria to get in
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