look at the emerging ireland squad from 2013 below, ive bolded those who went on to have a half decent test career (more than 10 caps).
EMERGING IRELAND Squad (Tblisi Cup, Georgia):
Michael Allen (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) *
Michael Bent (Dublin University/Leinster)
Andrew Conway (Blackrock College/Leinster) *
John Cooney (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
Sean Cronin (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)
David Foley (UL Bohemians/Munster) *
Eoin Griffin (Galwegians/Connacht) *
Cathal Marsh (Dublin University/Leinster) *
Michael Heaney (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) *
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) *
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
Richard Lutton (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) *
Brendan Macken (Blackrock College/Leinster) *
Jack McGrath (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) *
Eoin McKeon (Galwegians/Connacht) *
Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
Niall Morris (Leicester Tigers) *
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
Ian Nagle (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster) *
Tiernan O’Halloran (Galwegians/Connacht) *
Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) (capt)
Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
Lewis Stevenson (Malone/Ulster) *
thats not a bad return from a "seconds" squad. if we could get anything close to that from this SA tour we'd be doing extremely well
Ah. So probably all the staff except AF? So they'll build their working relationships with all the staff except AF and that's not good?
Why people think minutes against Currie cup teams is good prep for test rugby is beyond me.
Do you question the purpose of the Irish team playing the under 20’s as prep for the 6N too?
Everyone but Farrell I believe.
I wonder if any other options were considered.
Would Farrell get similar benefits from hosting a couple of out of window tests against tier 2 opposition.
Extend the Autumn Internationals. Send out the emerging players against Samoa on 29 October and Japan on 26 November.
Wales and South Africa are playing out of competition tests and no one is accusing them of crapping on the league.
I’d say firstly having two extra tests means having a bigger squad with the extra players being sort of bag holders and secondly I’d say this is about getting players into a proper touring camp, with leadership groups and meetings based around that squad.
In fairness Wales crap on the league by being in it.
This is exactly the point, it's much less about he matches and much more about the environment, systems and expectations in the camp on tour. From the coaching pov it's often the case that in a tournament you end up press ganging in players to cover injuries/covid/suspensions by bringing in players not part of the original squad, they need to slot in and maybe play almost immediately in matches that are potentially WC knockouts. If this tour pays off in one or two situations like that it's well worth it, never mind the benefits to players themselves from being part of this kind of tour. I've no doubt that in the long term it benefits the provinces too.
I've no doubt that in the long term it benefits the provinces too.
Unfortunately I have several doubts. By far the best thing for the provinces is to have a URC with competitive teams, with every union fully committed to it.
Yes, the Welsh carping on about joining the Premiership is annoying, particularly when they are so uncompetitive - but we are not exactly countering their argument that we don't think the league seriously.
But in reality the provinces will likely field stronger teams during this tour as they'll need frontliners to play in games they might not ordinarily play in, I'm really not convinced that this will somehow diminish the URC. But the point you quote here is about those younger players benefiting from the tour which should make them better players, and that should help the provinces longer term. Honestly people are looking for downsides here when there really aren't any.
Honestly people are looking for downsides here when there really aren't any.
I think the potential for injury is another downside. If someone like, say, Cian Prendergast arrived back with a long-term injury, I think Connacht fans would have reason to feel aggrieved.
Ultimately, it's additional game-time, outside a Test window, in an already stretched calendar.
The opposition is irrelevant here. The environment is what is important. Getting more lads time into an Irish camp with the Irish coaches in the limited time left before the WC is a great idea, considering a few of these boys might be on the bubble or end up as injury cover - they'll be able to fit right in without any disruption.
Normally when Ireland play, people want 15 brand new uncapped players under the age of 24 or else we're not building depth for the future. For those people, I thought this would be a wet dream.
But if Prendergast (or whoever) didn't travel, he'd be training and playing in Ireland the whole time anyway. There's no extra gametime and they're as likely to get injured in the URC as they are on tour.
But everyone is condemning them for a lack of player welfare by then increasing the number of games this season.... which they have history with as well.
WR should not be sanctioning these out of window games in the name of player welfare.
It's pure profiteering on the backs of the players
There is extra game time tho; there’s an extra 80 mins x 15 x 3 = an extra 3,600 minutes that we didn’t have in previous seasons.
That will have to be managed in terms of player welfare.
I’m not saying it’s jeopardous but it is a consideration.
But it's not extra game time. By playing three games in SA, they're missing three rounds of URC.
Net effect = zero. No?
The net effect for the players on tour is zero. But the net effect for the provincial squads isn’t.
It doesn’t line up exactly but by way of example, take the URC game following the tour; the remaining squad will have played the previous 3 URC games PLUS the re-joining tour members will have played their tour minutes they’ve played in parallel. That’ll have to be managed.
Unless I’m missing something?
There are extra minutes but that's not necessarily a bad thing. If those minutes go to already stretched players, then it's probably not good. If those minutes go to fringe squad players and academy players, then it's not bad at all. Might weaken the team a bit but that's always the way when trying out young players.
That’s exactly the point tho; some fringe players for the Ireland squad are core players for the provinces.
We’ll wait and see what the squad is tho, but I take the point. Jack Crowley for example was released to play for Shannon last season. This tour could be great for someone like him.
But it’s also likely to take away a cohort of guys that are closer to Ireland inclusion and key to their province.
I know what the point I quoted is. The provinces don't exist in a vacuum and the strength of the URC and how seriously it is taken is of vital importance to the long-term health of the provinces (particularly given the constant **** around with the European Cup) and the ability of young players to improve and grow. Efforts such as trying to get more Scottish and Welsh players back playing in-country benefits us in the long term and while the effect is minimal, things like this do not help that.
Leinster may well field a stronger team, but I doubt that will be true across the board. People can view the downsides of this to be worth it in the long term and its a pretty reasonable view, but I reject completely the idea that there are none.
why would it be a wet dream...its an uncapped mickey mouse tour where the head coach will be absent. its unsurprising many on here can´t find fault with it.
i think you mean cork con
Indeed I do.
I see your point but I'd still say the two issues you refer to are unrelated. Irish provinces do take the URC seriously, I've not see criticism that they don't. The criticism wrt Irish teams is that Leinster have the resources to compete in the league without having to use their frontline players often, rather than they don't take the comp seriously, they've won 5 from the last 6 afterall.
Welsh and Scottish problems with players based in other leagues is a separate problem that no-one paying attention will confuse with any Irish issues and I can't see how this proposed tour is related to those problems in any way whatsoever. As for the net affects on the provinces of this tour and their URC performances we'll just have to see who tours and how they cope, I'm guessing it won't be significant but Ill be happy to eat my shoe if it does have a big impact on results.
Considering the current state of Irish rugby and what the IRFU have managed to achieve with such a small pool of players, I'll trust that the people involved and paying for this tour see merit in it.
I'll go with that.
Interesting read:
This paragraph in particular, with regards the SA tour:
The IRFU have said the 35-player squad will largely be populated by those who have stood out at U20 level in recent years, and the URC boss says their concerns have been allayed by Irish Rugby, with Ireland's frontline internationals set to be available during that period.
I think I would go with something like:
Loosehead: Jeremy Loughman, Michael Milne, Jack Boyle
Hooker: Diarmuid Barron, John McKee, Tom Stewart
Tighthead: Martin Moore, Thomas Clarkson, Dominic Robertson-McCoy, Keynan Knox
Lock: Joe McCarthy, Thomas Ahern, Cormac Izuchukwu, Brian Deeny
Blindside: Ryan Baird, David McCann
Openside: Will Connors, Scott Penny
No. 8: Max Deegan, James Culhane
Scrumhalf: Nathan Doak, Cormac Foley, Paddy Patterson
Outhalf: Ciarán Frawley, Harry Byrne, Ben Healy
Left Wing: Jordan Larmour, Aaron Sexton
Inside Centre: Chris Farrell, Ben Brownlee
Outside Centre: James Hume, Jamie Osborne
Right Wing: Robert Baloucoune
Fullback: Jimmy O'Brien, Jack Kelly
I think it's important to have a look at some tighthead options behind the main three, in case there's an injury come RWC time. Patterson's playing style reminds me of JGP, so I think he might suit Farrell's gameplan. I'd like to see them being open-minded about Jack Kelly having a future in 15s. It'd be very interesting to see what he could do, and the 7s World Series doesn't start till later in the year. Aaron Sexton has killer pace and a bit of a playmaking game. I'd like to see him involved.
Some Connacht players, like Dooley, Thornbury and Murphy, would be worth spots; Dooley's more likely to make RWC 2023 than Milne, I'd say. But these players are probable starters for Connacht, and they have a run of important games, so it might be better if they weren't selected.
I don't think playing in this would really change how well Edward Byrne, Scannell and McCloskey could perform for Ireland in future. Scannell showed in NZ he could slot in and play well. I don't think they need this involvement.
I'd guess the November squad will look broadly like the following:
Loosehead: Andrew Porter, Cian Healy, Jeremy Loughman
Hooker: Ronan Kelleher, Dan Sheehan, Rob Herring
Tighthead: Tadhg Furlong, Finlay Bealham, Tom O'Toole
Lock: James Ryan, Tadhg Beirne, Iain Henderson, Kieran Treadwell, Joe McCarthy
Blindside: Peter O'Mahony, Cian Prendergast, Ryan Baird
Openside: Josh van der Flier, Nick Timoney
No. 8: Caelan Doris, Jack Conan, Gavin Coombes
Scrumhalf: Jamison Gibson-Park, Conor Murray, Craig Casey
Outhalf: Jonathan Sexton, Joey Carbery, Ciarán Frawley, Harry Byrne
Left Wing: James Lowe, Jacob Stockdale
Inside Centre: Robbie Henshaw, Bundee Aki
Outside Centre: Garry Ringrose, James Hume
Right Wing: Mack Hansen, Robert Baloucoune, Andrew Conway
Fullback: Hugo Keenan, Jimmy O'Brien
Jack Kelly! Lol
Niall Murray or Thornbury over treadwell who’s been in camp recently. Would 100% bring Crowley. Cathal Forde over Tom Daly. Would look at Shane Jennings too.
When will the squad be announced and when is the tour?
