The squad will get a real sense of what it's like to be in Ireland camp as a main player (not a fringe player or golding tackle bags) and what the requirements are to make it at that level.
They won't though, because they'll be playing against sub-URC standard teams who they'll each probably put 50 points on. They'll learn nothing about the requirements to make it at the top level playing against that standard of opposition. If it's just about having them in camp, why bother taking them to South Africa? Just get them into camp here and have them play AIL teams.
If they could have organised a 3 test series against an "Emerging Springboks" or "South Africa A" team, that would have been far more beneficial.
You’ve admittedly yourself it’ll cause disruption to the provinces. Pointing that out isn’t whinging.
J think this is a great opportunity for the guys called up. It will cause some disruption to the provinces but that's always the case when internationals are called away.
It's bound to attract whinging but it's ultimately a very good idea and proactive player development by Ferrell. I hope it gives those emerging players a boost and helps them progress for the rest of the season when they return.
In that case, I look forward to future proclamations of death blows to Irish rugby…. Welcome back.
The more we seem to be hearing about this and the Italian tour, the more it looks like a tour for guys aged 18-22 more than anyone else. I’m sure there’ll be a few older heads in there, but it doesn’t look like we’ll be losing 20+ guys who would otherwise be playing in the URC or anything like that. Hopefully that’s the case anyway.
Pages of criticism of this tour and bang straight in with people are unable to criticise AF or the irfu.
One other angle is that it could be good experience of an away tournament for the coaches.
ah he´s got you there. they are completely relevant lol. you´re just moving the goalposts.
Its often what people say. oh we can´t juddge on URC or the weak NOV games etc etc. whats the difference here?
its a nonsense tour. lets call it what it is. AF won´t even be there. not everything the IRFU do has to be applauded on this forum.
Having a fringe player playing well here, learning systems will have absolutely no bearing on the World Cup. its basically the equivalant of playing Bayonne unde EOS. ill concieved and pointless. People are just incapable of criticising the bestest/smartest stystem in the World ©
well i think the win/its significance over NZ has been reframed, given how poor they have been.
Are you being deliberately obtuse by conflating two totally separate arguments. Or do you genuinely not get they’re not relevant to each other? I’m not sure.
This has absolutely nothing to do with selection criteria. You are tying to conflate the relevance of playing for your province against Cheetahs as a reason for selection. With playing within the Irish systems for experience against Cheetahs for those who have already met the selection criteria.
I just read one of the article in the 42 on it and it’s saying there will be a number of guys from the last couple of years of U20s who will be going too. It also says that the internationals will be available to the provinces. There is a real chance that this won’t be the big blow to the provinces and the URC that some seem to think.
Of course there’s also still the chance that it will…..
Italy are doing the same as us, from last week in sept to 2nd week in october.
so leinster v benetton, munster v zebre, ulster v leinster, connacht v munster may all be effected, but equally between the sides
How about we look at a possible squad ourselves?
Loosehead:
Loughman, Ed Byrne, Milne
The first 2 are guys they want to consider as being in or around the RWC squad. The latter is an upcoming player who the provinces won’t miss.
Hooker:
McKee, Barron, McCormick
We’re pretty well set at hooker with Kelleher, Sheehan, Herring and Heffernan. We might as well take a bunch of promising young lads.
Tighthead:
TOT, Clarkson, Abdaladze
We aren’t blessed with loads of options here. I don’t see Moore coming in out of the cold at this stage. TOT is about the only realistic option behind Furlong and Bealham at the moment. Clarkson and Abdaladze might leave Leinster a little tight there but I’m not sure who else could be in the frame. Maybe McGuire from the U20s?
Lock:
Treadwell, McCarthy, Molony, Whycherley
With Henderson, Beirne, Ryan and Baird having had plenty of time with the squad this group probably makes sense in the short to medium term.
Back Row:
Prendergast, Soroka, Kendellan, Penny, Deegan, Boyle
We’re fairly well sorted at back row with Doris, VDF, Conan, POM and Timoney all looking good. Connors is coming back to fitness and Coombes is injured. Hodnett would be another option for the squad.
Scrum Half:
Doak, Blade
Casey has had plenty of time in camp and probably doesn’t need to travel for this. And like Moore, I don’t see McGrath coming in from the cold either. With JGP, Murray and Casey we are reasonably well covered here.
Out Half:
H Byrne, Frawley
Harry Byrne has been with the squad plenty, but his injury profile and our issues at 10 mean they’ll probably want to work with him a bit more. And Frawleys performances in NZ may have him in the frame for 10 as well. I don’t see Healy going, but Crowley may be in the running too.
Centre:
Tom Daly, Moore, Osbourne, Postlethwaite
We’re in decent shape at centre so the need isn’t huge here. Daly was in last summer, Moore can cover multiple positions and has looked good, Osbourne has been excellent at Leinster a few times now and Postlethwaite could be worth a look after the U20s too.
Back Three:
Balacoune, JOB, Lyttle, Campbell
With Lowe, Hansen, Conway, Earls, Keenan, Larmour and Lowry we have decent cover in the back three. Throw in Stockdale and those are decent options. Like Harry Byrne, I’d say the coaches would like time with Balacoune.
So who does that leave the provinces with then? If the internationals are available (and I’m not up to speed on injury updates):
Leinster 23:
Porter, Kelleher, Furlong, Ryan, Jenkins, Doris, VDF, Conan
JGP, Sexton, Lowe, Henshaw, Ringrose, Larmour, Keenan
Sheehan, Healy, Ala’alatoa, Baird, Ruddock, McGrath, R Byrne, TOB
Munster 23:
Kilcoyne, Scannell, Archer, Beirne, Kleyn, POM, JOD, Hodnett
Murray, Carbery, Zebo, Farrell, Fekitoa, Earls, Haley
Barron, J Whycherley, Knox, Ahern, JOS, Casey, Healy, Daly
Ulster 23:
Warwick, Herring, Moore, O’Connor, Henderson, Reidy, Rea, Timoney
Cooney, Burns, Gilroy, McCloskey, Hume, McIlroy, Lowry
Andrew, EOS, Milasinovich, Carter, Murphy, Shanahan, Madigan, Moxham
Connacht 23:
Buckley, Heffernan, Bealham, Murphy, Thornbury, Masterson, Oliver, Butler
Marmion, Carty, Hansen, Aki, Farrell, A Byrne, TOH
Tierney-Martin, Dooley, Aungier, Murray, Jennings, Reilly, Hawkshaw, Wooton
EDIT: Left out my centres.
We can’t possibly know if the cost benefit stacks up because we don’t know what the cost is going to be and we don’t know what the benefit is going to be because we know almost nothing about who will be going and who will be available to the provinces in their absence. You’re making a judgement in the absence of information, not in the presence of it.
I have to admit, I do find it hard to keep up with the ever changing view on what is important and what isn't.
It seems to vary from "we can't pick players based on URC games because those games aren't high enough quality to show us anything", to "it doesn't actually matter what standard the opposition is at all".
No doubt come November we'll be back to the former viewpoint.
I am saying that when you look at this objectively, the cost / benefit ratio does not stack up.
We are **** all over our league for some games against Currie Cup teams. If all we want to achieve here is to see how they do listening to Irish coaches and playing as a team then there is absolutely no need whatsoever to go on a 3 week junket to South Africa.
playing these 3 curry cup teams won´t mean diddly squat in the long term. play the lads in real test matches ffs.
But we have too many players on the fringes to play them all in 'real test matches'.
I'm guessing the objective of this tour is to whittle down the chasing pack into those who deserve consideration for the November tests. Even if the opposition is shyte, it gives the coaching team a chance to see these guys up close.
I see this didn't last too long...
i said i won't post again if we win and so i won't.
and the main man won´t even be there.
its an ill concieved tour, bordering on pointless. playing these 3 curry cup teams won´t mean diddly squat in the long term. play the lads in real test matches ffs.
You seem to be laboring under the delusion that playing against better quality opposition will automatically make them better players.
Being comfortable in the systems both in attack, defense and transition. All improve from game time. It also gives the management a look at players in match situations, within their systems. Why do you think most teams look a bit all over the place at the beginning of a new season. Despite preparing for 2 months?
Someone like Jack O’Donoghue could be a good candidate for the leadership role as well, but seems to be out of favour as compared to other options.
We’ll wait and see but I’m still skeptical. I don’t see how having 30-odd players gone outside a Test window isn’t gonna cause disruption.
Except it’s nothing like that at all. It’s more like getting an Academy player in to train with the senior coaches and systems there in order to prepare them to play senior provincial rugby. And then getting that A side to play an AIL side to test what they have learned.
Getting guys dedicated time with the Irish coaches to learn how Ireland operate and to see how they can adapt to that and then to have some form of test to see how they translate that to a match scenario is absolutely nothing at all like what you are describing. I’d almost think you were being deliberately facetious based on the above.
If you can’t see the positives in what a tour like this can bring then you are either not considering it at all or you are wilfully ignoring any positives. Because there is a point to this. The only question is whether the cost to the league and the provinces is worth the benefit. And we won’t know that for another month or so.
The solution to players in the wider squad having a lack of exposure to test rugby is not giving them minutes in fixtures that are of a lower standard than what they play week in, week out with their clubs.
It's as if people think that all we need to do is give these lads a match wearing a green jersey and that'll do the trick.
Its like a province sending a young player to play AIL for his club to prepare them for a Champions Cup game. Makes no real sense.
I think that’s exactly awec’s point tbh.
Points won early in the season are as valuable as points won late in the season..
I’d imagine a couple of those lads won’t be in the mix tbh. If Ed Byrne and Loughman go there probably won’t be a need for Dooley for example.
It will also be interesting to see if they bring any “senior” players. For example could Ruddock go in the same capacity as he did for Leinster in April? Someone will need to captain the squad after all.
It will also be interesting to see if any of the U20s go given that they only had a 3 game series as opposed to a World Cup this year.
It’s strange that a lot of posters who constantly complain about players not getting minutes. Are the ones so vociferously opposed to this. Regardless of the opposition, playing as a team having to make real time decisions in match conditions. Is always going to be more valuable than a training camp.
I'm not sure, molloy, that's still just 15 players you've listed. There'll be another, what, 17 or so? Even if that is the level of player they're looking to bring, there's still going to be disruption for the provinces that's likely to have an impact.
Just from the 15 you mentioned, that'd be Prendergast, Boyle, Blade, Dooley and Tom Daly missing for Connacht. Throw in Murray and/or Thornbury and it starts to become pretty significant for them.
Good points there. The only reasons to have those guys in there would be to develop something specific in their games or to develop/have a bit of leadership. And do they all need that? Doubtful.
In fact, if you look at the 23 from the first Māori game and remove anyone who has had decent time in camp already (but leave in guys who may have work ons or be in a position that we badly need depth) you’ve got:
Loughman, O’Toole, McCarthy, Prendergast, Frawley & JOB
Now throw in a few guys from the games last summer:
Ed Byrne, F Whycherly, Boyle, Blade, H Byrne, Shane Daly
There were also a few last summer who didn’t see game time:
Dooley, Molony and Tom Daly
If these are the kinds of guys that the squad is focusing on then it’s hard to see it have all that much impact on the provinces really. It just depends on who they pad the rest of the squad with.
I’d imagine opposition schedules are probably a bit more relevant to the timing than anything else.
