Anyone driving through Letterkenny recently will get a first hand view how the country's demographic has changed.
Is that cost thing proven? Would it cost more to deport people or how more to process claims and get quicker decisions?
Found this in reddit
For net migration, officials set out three projections: low, medium and high net migration, corresponding to 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 additional people per year moving to the country rather than leaving it. In simple terms, statisticians were expecting the population to increase by somewhere between 32,000 people per year and 49,000.
These projections are subjected to a reality check of sorts each year, when officials tot up information from other sources, to generate an annual estimate of the population. Doing this each year between 2016 and the latest Census, the best estimates were that Ireland had added 272,000 extra people in the six years to 2022 – or 45,000 people a year.
What the latest Census figures show is that the country instead added nearly 385,000 people in the same six-year period – or 64,000 per year. Just over 190,000 of this increase came from net international migration. In other words, nearly 32,000 more people came to Ireland each year to live than left.
...
Irish housing policy is currently constrained by the Housing Needs & Demand Assessment (HNDA), an exercise that each local authority must undertake as part of the preparations for its Development Plan. Development Plans for the rest of the decade are to be published by almost all local authorities over the next year or so. Those plans are reviewed by the Office of the Planning Regulator (OPR).
The OPR takes a dim view of local authorities countenancing growth above the official projections contained in the HNDA. But the HNDA is based on a view of the future where Ireland’s net migration is just 15,000 per year. Even averaged over the past 25 years, net migration has been over 22,000 per year. And as per above, net migration for the rest of the decade could be twice that long-run average and three times the number in the HNDA.
All of this wouldn’t be so critical if the HNDA’s numbers weren’t taken as maximums, the ceiling above which the number of new homes should not go. But the combination of a failure of imagination – and a failure to understand the consequences of too few homes – has left Ireland dangerously exposed to many more years of growing pains.
We are way better off with Ukrainians than anyone from Africa. Compatibility is hugely important when we are getting squished for space. The world is getting packed and we have to accept migration is a reality. We need to be responsible for our legacy and not let in people that are going to need adaptation babysitting for generations.
>The total number of PPS numbers issued this year is 183,601; over 9,000 more than the total of 174,525 for the twelve months of 2021. At this rate there will be over 300,000 new PPS numbers issued by the end of 2022, and over 75% of them will be to people of other than Irish nationality.
>So far this year, 27% of new PPS numbers have been issued to people who are not Irish or any other EU nationality, and not among those claiming refugee status from Ukraine.
Oh there's much to that too and is seen in every other "multicultural" nation. That's not to say racism doesn't exist. Only a damned fool could claim that with a straight face. And nobody from an obvious minority group of any hue in any country would claim it.
Rather than racism, I would say "Otherism" is inherent in human nature and always has been and isn't going away any time soon. And this otherism can be seen and used in different ways. Those looking for inclusion as well as those looking to exclude and yes as you note by those wanting for excuses because of it.
Or looking to benefit from it. In the latter case the UCD "academic" and her ridiculous and laughably ignorant crusade about statues outside a Dublin hotel a good example. Her social position and means of income depends on otherism. Same for firebrands on the right as well as the left all the way through charities and public service entities directly involved. Vested interests all over the place.
The more otherism the better too. As I noted before the vast majority of inward migration to Ireland over the last 25 years has been of White Europeans. Black Africans are the minority in this, never mind compared to the overall population. However they're the most obviously "other", they stick out, so the focus goes there, in media, even advertising, NGOs and Right and Left wing discourse. It's a lot harder to engender either support or hate for say Latvians simply because they're not "other" at all unless you actually talk with one and even then it's of a far less other. And that's pretty much why we have Irish Black History month and pretty much nada for anyone else and IMHO we're setting us and them up for a fall, because this stuff simply doesn't work and looks like the half hearted sop it is, not least to Black people. I'd also say it's one main reasons why we only took in 3000 odd Syrians over ten years and with lots of checks and balances, yet took over ten times as many Ukrainians in a few months. That same inherent to human nature otherism was much quicker to see Ukrainians as "Us" than Syrians, who are much more "Them".
I have noted down the years that Western White Europeans are much more likely to ignore even deny this sorta thing, whereas Eastern Europeans are much more likely to acknowledge it. Same for East Asians. IMHO they're more honest about it.
Conor McGregor doesn't qualify for jobseekers allowance anymore because of immigrants.
Thats it in a nutshell.
Picking some random thing out of thin air and blaming it on immigrants despite the fact there is ZERO link. That poster constantly does this; finds fault with many things and makes ludicrous and ridiculous claims that immigrants are the blame/cause of what they are complaining about.
Its never ever the goverments fault. Its never because family members failed income threshholds. Always about blame and shame of immigrants.
Immigrants are not to blame for your family members losing their medical card. No matter how many times you make that claim. Its just not true.
Well according to you its more like
Failing means test because income/resources are above the threshold = immigrants bad!
Disingenuous indeed
Only it won't be. Black Africans here already report and face discrimination in job applications. They're also far more likely to be in need of social supports than the background population. Even with our existing anti discrimination legislation, feel good government and media campaigns and Irish Black History month. It's fine, even laudable to be optimistic, but it can also be extremely naive and blinded to realities by that same optimism. Unless there's a social miracle and a shift in basic human nature Ireland will follow the exact same trajector as every single other "multicultural" nation out there. It's a given.
While I agree that such discrimination exists, and it definitely does.. I do wonder how much of it is imagined or conveniently applied to reinforce the victim position within a society, due to the range of benefits/supports that status can provide. I remember a conversation with a Black American I knew in China, who came from a middle class family, and he spoke often about the way other Black people in the US glorified in their positions of being discriminated against, to the extent they didn't need to improve themselves because they'd passed all responsibility for their positions over to other people. Even when the State supports, and private contributions were there to provide education, other developmental tools, and the funding to leave that lifestyle behind, they refused to do so.
I learned from living in China that if you go looking to find racism, it's easy to find. It's remarkably easy to take any behaviour that is even remotely negative (especially that which is neutral for others but you've got a negative connection with it), and assign a position of racism over it. I'd experienced the same when working in Africa, where the looks of others, the manner in which they took my order in a cafe, or the way police officers dealt with my queries, could all be assigned to a sense of racism.. because it's kinda nice to blame it all on racism, than deal with our own shortcomings.
Last week I spent some time in the pub with a group of older friends, and a few people I hadn't known previously. They were talking about searching for better employment, the interviews they'd had, the promotions missed, etc. Naturally enough most of the complaints were about external influence as opposed to what they were lacking as possible employees.. but the two Black people at the table immediately claimed that racism was the reason for it. Nothing else. Everyone was racist when they didn't employ them, or they didn't get their desired promotions.. whereas the Irish blamed quotas, contractors coming in, etc.
I think we've (western culture) set ourselves up due to the way minorities and racism are seen in society.. and by extension, through the government initiatives. People are going to take the advantages presented to themselves. That includes the advantage of being a minority, and the convenience of being able to cry racism when something goes wrong. I've done it myself in China (until my ex explained it applied equally to Chinese people), but it was simply so easy to consider racism to be the reason, because I knew that China/Chinese people were quite racist. The stereotype existed.. which is racist in itself. It's a funny one.
Failing means test = rich, right… some disingenuous schtick.
It’s not weak though, because the other forms of taxation are irrelevant. I’m making the comparison on the most basic level because that’s the most basic comparison being drawn - people complaining about how their income tax contributions are being used to provide support for immigrants who haven’t the means to support themselves.
I’m well aware where the rest of Exchequers revenue comes from, but it’s a pointless comparison. Why would I include for example Capital Gains Tax, Corporation Tax, VAT or Stamp Duty when they’re not based upon whether an individual is an immigrant or not? I’m well aware too it’s not just the cost of the handouts, but again those handouts aren’t based upon whether an individual is an immigrant or not.
https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/receipts/net-receipts.pdf
It was YOU who made the point about how much immigrants cost the State and how the State should be under no obligation to provide for them, so I figured fcuk it, if you’re attempting to suggest the State can simply ignore its international human rights obligations and you want to boil it down to cost, let’s do just that.
Now you say it’s NOT just about the money? Well I knew that, but feel free to raise whatever other considerations you think it’s about that you think I haven’t already considered. Being an immigrant yourself, it stands to reason you’ll have considered factors that won’t occur to me who’s never had to think about anything from an immigrants perspective.
Ah the sniff of the No true Scotsman in the air. Russia and China are empires and are multicultural as empires tend to be. This imperial difference also "explains" China's atitude to Uyghurs and even Tibet. It's quite the different mindset. And of course they both very much have a heirarchy in place with one at the top.
The problem is every single Western "multicultural" nation you care to look at is the exact same when it comes to these hierachies. It doesn't seem to matter what laws against discrimination and education and "positive discrimination" and recent or longterm histories or politics are involved the same groups end up in pretty much exactly the same tiers within the hierarchy. IE Black African most likely to be less employed, less educated, more in reciept of social supports, more marginalised and so forth. East Asians tend to be at the same level or higher than the local White population, Middle easterners and those from the subcontinent with the biggest spread from top to bottom, depending on background cultures. There isn't a single example out there where East Asians do the same or worse than Black Africans. Not a one. Doesn't matter if it's a democracy, right, left, centrist, autocracy, pro or anti outsiders, an "old" nation or a more newly minted European colonial one*, or even empires. The surface shifts and individuals have more leeway and some are certainly better than others, but the overall realities seem to be remarkably consistent. But apparently if we bring about true multiculturalism here in Ireland, for the first time in history by the by, then sure it'll be grand.
Certainly and I'd agree with all that. But it's yet another example of why this politic is doomed to failure. What you describe about London's East End and history and the demographic shifts there, "White Flight" etc can be transferred to and observed in any big city in France, Germany, Sweden, Holland and so forth. It is always the same story everywhere you look.
My consistent position in this thread and about this politics is: All nations have their own social issues and ills, however the Western "multiculturalist" politic adds more on top and different ones and seemingingly intractable ones and to little seeming benefit beyond the novelty of exoticism, feelings of charity and some vain optimistic hope that this time it'll be different.
*save for the colonial nations having an extra twist, the original natives of those countries. So Native Americans in the US and Canada being marginalised, or worse a place like Australia where their natives were utterly screwed and remain so in many ways. If I had to live in Australia I'd much prefer to be Black and African than Aboriginal.
LOL I remember that. He was going on about it but then it became clear that they didn't meet the means test.
He then used the argument that people failing to meet a means test = immigrants taking your medical cards.
Have you inquired about a discretionary medical card for your family members?
If your income is above the limit, you may still be able to get a medical card if your circumstances would result in financial hardship without one. This is sometimes called a discretionary medical card.
The application process for the discretionary medical card is the same as for the means tested medical card, but you should also include information about your family’s medical expenses in your application.
Ukranian refugees qualifying for a medical card under the Temporary Protection Directive will have to apply for a medical card under the same conditions and rules as everyone else after 9 months -
If you are coming to Ireland from Ukraine under the Temporary Protection Directive, you are entitled to health services and a medical card immediately. After 9 months, you need to make a full application for a medical card – including the financial assessment or means test. There is a special medical card application form (pdf) for people from Ukraine. This medical card application form is also available in Ukranian (pdf) and Russian (pdf).
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/medical_cards_and_gp_visit_cards/medical_card.html
It was you who provided the info that they were refused due to failing the means test, not I
In 2021, income taxes amounted to about €27.6Bn out of total revenues of €96.6Bn. The cost of revenue administration alone was nearly €500m, and there are posters here cribbing about public funds being spent on providing support for immigrants and the “cost” of immigrants?
Arguments about how much immigrants cost the State are weak as fcuk tbh
Your analysis is, to use the same amount of deep insight as you used, weak as fcuk. Contributions don't only include the income tax, that's only a piece of an individual's contribution to society. Who do you think produced the rest of the revenue, who works and creates value for those MNC that pay a lot of tax? Also the cost is not just the cost of the welfare handouts. It's not just about the money.
Rich ? loaded ? You can tell my folks are rich ? Some nonsense stretch even by your standards :)
people who have worked hard in life and been responsible with money and the thanks.. they get sick and it gets eaten into like there’s no tomorrow… that ain’t fairness, lifelong workers and taxpayers but they’ll be prevented from enjoying a facet of a safety net in senior years that instead is given to others just stepping off a plane. Nice. Z😉
Cordell that argument doesn’t even begin, for a number of reasons, so there’s little point in even entertaining it.
Providing for it’s citizens costs the State FAR more than the cost of supporting immigrants, which costs virtually feckall by comparison, not least because of the reality that there are millions more citizens than there are immigrants, but even at an individual level seeing as immigrants didn’t have the benefit of our public education system, or our public healthcare system, so even an immigrant coming in with nothing, is already costing the State less than a citizen who was born here.
I gather you’re doing alright for yourself, but you’re still a cost to the State even if you were never in receipt of support from the State, you still benefit from, and stand to benefit from it’s provision of public services which, I can rest assure you are funded to the tune of fannyadams by PAYE employees.
Arguments about how much immigrants cost the State are weak as fcuk tbh.
So just so it's clear, it's ok for an immigrant like you to come in and take Irish peoples housing and facilities because you pay tax?
It is quite difficult to understand your stance because you seem to be benefiting from taking up the housing and facilities of Irish people, to the detriment of some Irish people, according to your other arguments about immigrants.
I think I told you before that I'm not going to discuss my personal circumstances with you, didn't I?
I can discuss the immigration policies and, so in terms of immigration policies, immigration that contribute instead of taking should be more than welcome. Immigration that take more than contribute should be given one last handout in form of a one way trip back where they came from. Hope it's all clear now.
You are taking up housing and facilities that could be used by the indigenous people. What right did you have to come in to this land and take up housing and facilities that could have been used by someone whose bloodline goes back 9000 years on this land?
^ You use this logic for other immigrants but not yourself, even though you are an immigrant yourself. What do you say to the Irish people who are not happy with you coming in and taking up their housing and facilities?
Ahh I get you now. You’re looking at it in the very short term though, whereas you must be aware by now that it costs the State orders of magnitude greater expenditure and resources to keep immigrants out, than it does to permit them entry and give them initial support to enable them to establish themselves and become net contributors to the economy?
If ever there were an example necessary, the UK/Rwanda agreement is going to cost an enormous amount of public funds, for absolutely no return on investment whatsoever for the UK economy, and the same small number of people who called for the implementation of the policy have just shafted every UK citizen with the cost, even those UK citizens who haven’t been born yet. Boris won’t give a fcuk, Boris is Boris, he’ll be grand 😂
Of course I don't blame them for trying to get a better life, that will be absurd. I do blame the government immigration policies for letting them in and for letting them stay and for providing welfare instead of transportation.
Wait a minute, one minute you’re talking about it being pragmatic that there’s no reason or no need for immigrant ghettos and they can be poor in their own country, and now you don’t blame them but they’re a cost, and no society have a duty to pay this cost, but it doesn’t apply to you because… I’m guessing you think you don’t cost anything?
I couldn’t give a fcuk if you crawled out of a bog in Roscommon, or you just landed from the planet Mars, providing for you is still a cost to the State, even if you were living under a bridge. It still costs the State to provide for you, and the more the State provides for you, the more services you’re in a better position to access such services, let alone are you better protected by the State than those who are living in poverty and cost the State fcukall by comparison to yourself, or myself even more so as an Irish citizen who has benefitted from being provided with free education, healthcare and all the many other benefits besides.
It’s one of the reasons I encourage any immigrant to apply for citizenship as soon as they possibly can. It isn’t unusual either to meet many immigrants who have no interest in Irish citizenship as they have no intention of staying, but the plan is to eventually return to their home country.
The conditions that produced such people in the first place? You mean like policies that ensured their failure to integrate into society was an absolute necessity for everyone else’s benefit? Not you of course, you didn’t benefit at all, weren’t even in the country at the time to be fair to you like.
But the people who got absolutely shafted and took on debt they were never going to be able to afford with all the new money that appeared to be floating about the place, while immigrants did all the menial labour and we went from an agricultural economy to a services economy with a bit of a manufacturing economy somewhere in between to now being perceived as a knowledge economy? They’re then forced to take on the burden of paying for already wealthy peoples greed.
Spread the persistent myth of anyone pulling themselves up by their bootstraps more like, and immigrants who have nothing and no power and no authority are a threat to “our” nations prosperity.
I don't blame the immigrants, they did what they had to do to get a better life. They are not (necessary) a threat, but they are a cost, and no society have any duty to pay it except for their own country. And since I'm not Irish that argument won't work on me (not that it would be valid otherwise).
I don’t see where’s the pragmatism for immigrants in that tbh, the reason they leave their own countries to immigrate to countries where they imagine they’ll have a better life for themselves and their families, is because generally speaking, they do! Or their children do at least, or grandchildren… takes a couple of generations. It’s why 200 years ago, hell, 50 years ago people then were having the same arguments about immigrants as we’re having now, portraying them as a threat to other groups in society and all the rest of it.
Limerick pogrom in 1904 is just another example of a culmination of the same sort of shìte that had been whipped up by miscreants at the time -
Around 1850 the accusations against the Jews widened: they were identified with the rise of capitalism and the money-grabbing deals that were deemed to go with it. Also, and paradoxically, they were seen as purveyors of radical ideologies which themselves were designed to overthrow the capitalist system! Additionally, the new and strident nationalism then rife in Europe portrayed them as rootless cosmopolitans who gave no allegiance to their countries of settlement but who exploited workers and peasants alike.
…
In 1904 there were roughly 35 Jewish families, about 150 people, in the Limerick urban area. They lived in Colooney Street (now Wolfe Tone Street), not far from the present-day O’Connell monument, and had established a Jewish burial-ground at Kilmurray, near Castleconnell. The first attack on them came in January, when, following a colourful Jewish wedding, a Judge Adams commented on their commercial success and vibrancy. This led to a sour report in the Limerick Leader, which compared their prosperity to the poverty of the native population. A few days later the matter was taken up by Fr John Creagh CSSR, spiritual director of the Arch Confraternity of the Sacred Heart, which had a membership of around 6,000.
From the pulpit Fr Creagh stated:
‘The Jews were once chosen by God. But they rejected Christ, they crucified Him. They called down the curse of His precious blood on their heads . . . They were scattered over the earth after the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and they bore away with them an unquenchable hatred for the name of Jesus Christ and his followers . . . The Jews came to Limerick apparently the most miserable tribe imaginable, with want on their faces, and now they have enriched themselves and can boast a very considerable house property in the city. Their rags have been exchanged for silk . . . How do the Jews manage to make their money? Some of you may know their methods better than I do, but it is still my duty to expose these methods. They go about as peddlers from door to door, pretending to offer articles at very cheap prices, but in reality charging several times more than in the shops . . . They forced themselves and their goods upon the people and the people are blind to their tricks . . .’
https://www.historyireland.com/the-limerick-pogrom-1904/
Weren’t the Irish people lucky they had Fr. Creagh looking out for ‘em, eh?
Like fcuk 😂
Ahh but our wealth, resources and economic success is unlimited.. we should be bringing in more dependents because it shows how wonderful we are as a people.
At least, that's what I've gotten from the logic shown online on the topic. We must do our bit, even though it does nothing to change the conditions that produced such people in the first place. Spread and share the joy of poverty.
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