New regulations new season....
Can redbull keep up the pace
Why are the cars with a back of the grid penalty for swapping engine parts allowed to compete in the second and third qualies?
Unlikely, but if the rule was to be thrown out then those times count again.
From my understanding they were all 10-place penalties, for Ferrari anyway. I think they took 4/5 10-place penalties, so technically I suppose the penalties only come into effect after they have their final position. Open to correction though.
Multiple cars can have multiple penalties, so if two drivers have 20 place penalties you can figure out who starts ahead if one qualifies 9th and the other qualifies 10th.
It works well enough, I think it would overcomplicate things to start saying you can't compete in Q3 and bump another car in instead, as there are so many possible situations to handle, all of which are very easy to calculate when you just let them qualify normally then add the penalty at the end.
Very occasionally you'll get a situation where a car has no reason to qualify quickly and can give their teammate a tow, but there's been plenty of occasions where teams have just sacrificed their number 2 driver to do that anyway, so I don't think it's a big deal.
Is the bloat not due to safety additions and race-length fuel tanks?
They already introduced race length fuel tanks a good few years before the hybrid formula, and the hybrid ones were actually smaller because they had to carry less fuel.
There are some increases due to safety but some of that comes back to the hybrid too. The hybrid power units are more than 50% heavier than the previous engines. This extra weight needs to be dragged around corners. In the first years they were dramatically slower than what came before and even slower than GP2 in some cases. So in order to drag all that weight around at a more respectable speed, they increased the size of the car to allow for more aero, and a bigger chassis means more weight. They also increased the size of the tyres to increase mechanical grip to allow for all that extra weight. And bigger tyres means more weight. And a heavier car means larger forces in an accident, which means stronger impact structures, which means more weight.
So the cars got heavier because of the power units, and that had multiple knock on effects that also added yet more weight, in addition to making the cars wider and longer. Some safety advances would have happened regardless, like the halo which weighs 7kg, but they're a fraction of the close to 200kg increase overall.
The result is cars that are still fast due to all the aero and mechanical grip that allows them to maintain high mid-corner speeds, but they are absolutely huge which makes side to side racing harder, and are significantly less nimble which is also less desirable for racing.
Not that the early 2000s V10s were a dream for racing, dirty air was a major problem and there was no DRS to help out. But just watching one of those cars being wrangled around a track can be as exciting as a whole race in the modern era. Marrying their lightness, their sound and their nimbleness to the current ground effect aero concept could be absolutely spectacular, and would also likely be the fastest F1 cars ever made.
The hybrid power units are more than 50% heavier than the previous engines. This extra weight needs to be dragged around corners. In the first years they were dramatically slower than what came before and even slower than GP2 in some cases. So in order to drag all that weight around at a more respectable speed, they increased the size of the car to allow for more aero, and a bigger chassis means more weight. They also increased the size of the tyres to increase mechanical grip to allow for all that extra weight. And bigger tyres means more weight. And
Rubbish. The Size of the cars increased because they needed more room for the new power units and all the components with them.
The size of the tires increased to make the cars have better grip yes and also because the skinny tires before them looked crap and because it was hoped the cars could corner faster and harder which they can as well as looking better.
I will be hungry for some rain at Hungary.
It's not rubbish. The cars were significantly smaller in 2014 when they contained the same PUs. Aerodynamic performance and safety structure improvements have progressively made the cars bigger since then. Arguably those things are also tangentially related to the heavier PUs.
I Know Ricard was hard to watch , but rain shouldn't be the fix ...even though it regularly seems to be the fix 😁
Forecast at the moment :
All over twitter right now that Porsche have bought 50% of Red Bull Racing. I can’t find a reliable source but we know they’ve been in talks for a while.
You’ll need to translate it
Seems the details have been leaked through a legal filing in Morocco. Looks like a big commitment from Porsche to buy into the team rather than just act as a works engine supplier like Honda. Alpha Tauri to remain 100% Red Bull owned while also receiving Porsche engines creates an interesting dynamic.
Details from The Race:
How do you even put a price on the front running F1 team with its own Engine department?
Huge risk for RB to take you would imagine. I guess they didn't have much confidence in their own ability to develop the Honda PU.
The plan seems to be for Red Bull Powertrains to continue operating as they are, with the brand name changed to Porsche, so not as big a change as it might seem. Porsche aren't setting up a new F1 engine factory, but over time I'm sure they will have more influence and input into the red bull power units. I do wonder what the implications are for Honda IP still being carried over though as surely they'd be in a position to veto their technology being used with Porsche taking the credit.
It’s an easy thing for RB to do. Porsche are well tested in LMP so that should transfer over to F1, and then couple that with RB and new engine formula, can’t lose really.
RB will be developing their engines until the new regs anyway, so plenty of confidence.
So we'll potentially have engines from VW group, Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Honda all on the grid in 2026.
Rumours about Audi buying a percentage of Sauber are also interesting. By the sounds of it, Red Bull, Sauber and Alpha Tauri will be using the VW engine with different badges. Ferrari will likely stay supplying Haas. That leaves McLaren, Aston Martin and Williams, who could stay with Mercedes, or possibly move to others. And possibly some new teams in the mix too...
McLaren or Williams returning to Honda or Renault could be on the cards.
Overall, this is good for the sport in 2026, but I can't see all of them staying around if their performance isn't up to scratch...
Honda are continuing to develop the PU (in the limited ways they can) and the Porsche engines won't be coming along until 2026 when they will be built from scratch to new regs alongside RBPT which is obviously what this tie up is going towards. I've no idea what you are trying to get at with that comment....
What is it you were expecting RB to develop for Honda exactly?
I was thinking of the scenario where porsche didn't come along and RB were left to develope the new PU without Honda.
I wasn't aware of them being built "from scratch" and thought it was only reg changes, that's the term iv heard through out, and figured they would be able to use the core components of what Honda had left behind and expand on that. Considering the experienced outfits they will be up against in a development race "from scratch" surely it's obvious that they realised they bit off more than they can chew by going out on their own.
I wasn't expecting them to develop anything "for" Honda
Wasn’t Honda just there in an advisory capacity?
Not sure how I feel about Porsche joining F1. And Audi taking a steak in Sauber. Its great there’s more variety but leaves a sour taste in the mouth for some reason
Porsche and Audi with 2 teams. Domination to follow i expect, specially when starting with taking half share in the front running team.
Seb Vettel just announced on his new Instagram that he's retiring at the end of this year
Great, more time to lecture us on the climate and environment.🙄
Let the silly season begin. Not a bad seat open in Aston Martin now.
He'll be missed...
Which is a good thing? Have you not seen how the world is basically on fire?
Yeah me too. Hasn't been on good form for a few years now. Always seems like a decent guy.
Didn't like Seb all that much in his early RB days but he really become a huge fan favourite in recent years. He'll be missed.
I thought he was an arse when driving with Webber (multi 21 etc.) But warmed to him big time in his Ferrari days.
Hungary 2017 was a stand out day for me... First GP I attended and Ferrari 1-2.. pity he didn't clench the title that year
