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Enjoyment vs Improvement

blue note

Where do people sit here? The title is too binary really because the two are linked for everyone to varying degrees, but you get what I'm talking about. For me, while I get great enjoyment from shooting good scores, if I wasn't trying to improve at the same time I'd find it empty. The problem of course is that improvement takes effort. If you really want to improve you probably need a round and a range session each week. I'm a little better than a round a month at the moment and a range session a little less often. But even with that little golf, I think if I tried to not play the shots I know put me in trouble, I'd enjoy it a lot less. Because I know what the right shot is and if I don't hit it I'll never be able to hit it. And ultimately, I'll be limited in where I can get to.

But if people here are like me and don't get to play all that often - would you be happier trying to get the best possible score on the day? Or would you rather persist with the driver, because you know in the long run it's a club you need to be able to hit. And if some people get to play in a summer what you get to play in two years, they might bed in those changes over a couple of months, whereas for you you'll be losing balls from the tee every time you play for the two years.

On the other side, I reckon I could have shot lower scores by putting the driver away and trying to avoid leaving myself that awkward wedge shot distance. But those awkward wedge shots were the worst part of my game and you'll never be able to avoid them completely. I'm a lot stronger at them now because I kept leaving myself with them.

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BoardsMember

Is that you Rory?

callaway92

Just on the OP - Saw a thing recently:

-- --

5 Index Handicapper - Find fairways 49.7% of the time with Driver

The percentage of the time they hit fairway when hitting anything other than Driver - 52.6%

-- --

For players of our levels, 'playing it safe' isn't as easy as you'd think. Obviously there's some holes where the shape of the hole might make the decision for you, but most of the time the goal should be get the ball as far as you can

Mantis Toboggan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352912#Comment_119352912

Maybe but not on a tree lined course where if you're off the fairway you're most likely chipping out sideways.

big_drive

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352912#Comment_119352912

I'd agree on that point, sometimes I might take a 3 wood instead of driver trying to play the "sensible" shot. Often I might actually end up in a worse situation. At pro level they are so consistent and can do it but I think a handicap golfer can make a mess of any club

Ivefoundgod

Depends on why you play the game I suppose. Some people want to do well in comps, some people want lower handicaps and some just play for the social side/relaxation of it and we all probably fit into all those categories at different times. For me I play to lower my handicap and get better, not to win competitions. Thats just a bonus if it happens. Others will try win comps and lower their handicap but I think once you get to <10 Hcap your prospects of winning big competitions are pretty low anyway. A lot of the really good golfers in my course don't play many comps aside from the majors where there's decent gross prizes. If you are off low single digits or + handicap you have no chance of winning the big comps really so at that level you are playing to get better/lower the handicap.

I do think you touch on a very common misconception with amateur golfers around driving the ball. Taking driver out of the bag is not going to reduce your score by 5 or 6 shots. 90% of the time the players taking iron or 3 wood off the tee because they are afraid of the driver are just making the game a lot harder on themselves. Unless you have a fast swing speed and can get your iron 200+ yards or 3 wood 230ish with consistency then not hitting driver is a mistake. People remember the driver that sliced OB but forget the topped 3 wood or duffed iron that left them taking 4 shots just to get near the green. Fair enough you may take a lost ball out of the equation hitting iron (you can slice an iron OB too though!) but hitting driver gives you the best chance of putting in a good score. My good rounds have all been days where my driver was going well, it makes golf a lot easier when you hitting shorter irons into greens. Don't need to hit fairways, just keep yourself in play and you'll generally score. We are amateur players at the end of the day so you are never going to go out and hit driver well every week, but you only need to do it 8 or so times in your most recent 20 rounds to lower your handicap. Plus who doesn't love bombing a driver out there? All the stats around SG etc. back this up too so, good article here https://eu.arccosgolf.com/blogs/community/3-wood-vs-driver-is-the-accuracy-worth-the-sacrificed-distance

A quicker way to cut strokes off your round is by avoiding blow ups, Golf sidekick on YouTube is a good starting point for this. If I hit a bad shot I always try to think how can I avoid the big number now, might be double I end up with but at least its not an 8 or 9. You can still enjoy the game while playing to put the best score in but unfortunately for most of us, good golf is boring golf. Watch or play with any low handicap players and you will see just how true that is. They don't go attacking pins or taking on stupid shots like most of us do, instead they'll play to the middle of greens, avoid hazards and take big numbers out of the equation. That is the only way to improve for us amateurs who don't get to spend hours a day at the range.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352984#Comment_119352984

That stat is taken from players worldwide, so the sample size is enough for it to even out. It’s there to be seen that the ‘play it safe’ generally doesn’t do much for the amateur player other than leaving them further from the green

5 index players are hitting the fairway less than 3% more with non-Driver clubs. So even if a course is tree aligned, Driver would generally still be best shot

willabur

plus also the closer you are to the hole the less shots you need to get home

blue note

While I love stats, I'd want to see much more specific ones to pay much attention to them. The average golfer age is probably in his 60s - they're playing a very different game to me. They've a different set of challenges. Fairways hit being a big example. If your driver goes 200 yards, you're likely missing the fairway by much less than me when you're missing it. What would be interesting to see is what percentage of drives you have a shot from - so no reloading, chipping out sideways, dropping, etc. Where the difference between hitting the fairway or not is a less favorable lie vs hitting 3 off the tee.

For me the real example in my post was choosing not to give myself full shots into the greens because I could see that I need to improve those 80m shots. My woods and irons are far from perfect, but I'm pretty confident I'd be in play more often if I hit them. And probably at a more favourable distance for me too. But the way I'd see it I'd be capping my ambition. So on top of the fact that I'd hopefully lose a couple less shots from the tee with wayward drives, I'd also have a better club into the green if I was aiming to give myself 120-130m shots in.

From persisting with the driver and wedges I do think I've improved at them. My drivers are straighter and my 3/4 wedge shots are much stronger. I was catching the majority of them fat or thin. Which could cost you a hole! Now I'm not terrible at them. It was slow to improve it though, because it could be a month before I get to practice them again.

blue note

@Ivefoundgod

"For me I play to lower my handicap and get better"

The question for a lot of people there is do you want to lower it as much as possible as quickly as possible or play a longer game (in both senses) and accept some stagnation or even going backwards in an effort to reach a new plateau altogether. It's just like someone accepting their slice vs trying to correct it. To correct it you'll end up missing both ways, not being sure of your distances etc. Whereas if you have a consistent one you can work with it very well. The problem however is that you're losing distance with it. And you can be crucified in a wind. And if you've trees on your left and it's going to bend more right, you've a problem shot on your hands.

OEP

I play purely to lower my handicap, I also enter lots of competitions - if I'm shooting a score to lower my handicap then I'm in with a chance of a prize anyway. I'm single figures so it's not easy to win comps, but that doesn't really bother me. Lower handicaps always have the 2s - as my father says, it's just a money pot for the good golfers!

I don't particularly enjoy casual social golf for the most part - at a minimum I'd need to have bets on with the people I'm playing against or else playing a really nice course. I'm generally either playing competitions or going out for a few holes where I'm practicing different shots.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353565#Comment_119353565

Yeah its an interesting question but one I think that isn't necessarily relevant to most players when you get to a certain level. I'd agree that you are extremely limited in terms of your development if you try to play the game 'with' a swing fault. As you say you're ceiling is limited by doing that but you will likely regress for a while. But I also don't think there are many single digit players who have that sort of fault in their game and play with it. I'm sure there are some but I think you can't really expect to consistently shoot in the low 80s/high 70s that a single digit player needs to do with something like that in your game. I think I'm at that plateau now where I'm probably as good as I'm going to get unless I dedicate time to practice and get some lessons. I'd like to get better at compressing the ball and taking a divot as I'm more of a sweeper at the moment. I think that and improving my overall ball striking is what I need to do to get much lower than where I am now at 9. I don't realistically have the time for that at the moment and with a baby on the way I'll have even less so now I'm focusing on limiting my mistakes and trying to hang in there and maybe drop to 8ish before the season ends.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353491#Comment_119353491

Just on that first point, the average 60 year old isn't using Arccos or any sort of stats tracker :) I think they give a breakdown of the age profiles of their users in their yearly reports, skews towards the younger, lower handicap players generally if I remember right.

Mantis Toboggan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353170#Comment_119353170

Oh I'd believe it especially in the US or places like Adare where the Fairways are 60 yards wide the holes are long and it's all about hitting it as far as possible.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354017#Comment_119354017

But again that stat is taken from courses worldwide (and it’s actually more likely that users of the App wouldn’t be playing Adare etc)

Very few times I’ve actually come away from a course thinking I should’ve left driver at home. Even I if I drove poorly that can just come down to it on the day.

As per the number shown, you’re barely hitting any more fairways with ‘safer’ clubs. It opened my eyes a bit for sure

As per the OP’s case of not liking the half wedge shots in - that’s completely understandable

billy3sheets

A lot of points to ponder in your posts @blue note

I don't know what handicap you play to. I have a HI of 15, which I am currently playing to consistently, for context to my comments.

You seem to be thinking that you've got to bomb the drive and leave yourself a half wedge to the green in order to improve or get to the next level. I find this strange. Surely even the pros lay up to their favorite yardage?

I don't think that some course management by playing with your current favorite clubs to help you to play to your current handicap should be considered a lack of ambition. Learning to walk before you run doesn't mean you don't want to run!

I personally want to get to a lower handicap but also enjoy when I win a prize. It's not the value of the prize but that it's a reflection of having delivered to or better than my current handicap. It may also be considered an improvement on my previous round when I didn't win a prize.

I play with many golfers in their 60s and older. Some are single figure handicap and hit driver well more than 200 yards. Their chief skill is not their distance but their consistency of ball strike and their scrambling ability with all manner of clubs.

I'd say if you're going to play a round for improvement, then you need to measure that improvement in some way other than the score you return. If the score is also good, that's a bonus but if not then you you shouldn't get upset about it as it wasn't the primary goal of the round.

blue note

I'm off 15 too. And it's not that I think I need to bomb it as close to the hole as possible, but rather I want to be able to play the three quarter wedge shots. So to practice them, I want to leave myself with them.

That said, looking for preferred distances I think leaving yourself 125m for a full wedge instead of 110m is a good idea. But laying up to 125m to avoid an 80m shot - I think you need to learn that 80m shot. I'm pretty sure you should fare better from that distance than 125m out.

The other example of choosing to improve long term at the detriment of medium term is trying to fix my swing. Without playing often, it'll be fixed (improved would be a more appropriate word) over a couple of years. Whereas I could have kept going the way I was and had better average scores over the last few months.

OEP

I think that missing the fairways stat is a bit misleading. You can be in the rough and be absolutely fine - there's a difference between missing the fairway by a meter and being 20 meters off line in the sh*t. And with a driver you're more likely to be way off line than with a shorter club - that said I think driver is probably the most important club to hit well as it makes a huge difference if you're close to the hole and either on the fairway or just off in the rough with a reasonable lie.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357212#Comment_119357212

I would say you are going about it wrong in regards to wedges anyway. Trying to leave yourself 3/4 wedge so you can practice them during a counting round isn't a good way to improve on that IMO. I had similar issues with my wedges as well in terms of getting my yardages right. Just spent a week or two going over the range at our club with a rangefinder and giving myself 70/80/90/100/110/120 yard shots. Hitting over and over until I got a feel for them and how far each club is travelling. Arccos is great for that too as I can match my range distances to real world shots. I'm pretty handy from inside 100 yards now but have always had a good short game, anything under 60/70 yards I play by feel. You mention 80m wedge shot, I make that about 88yards. To me that's a full wedge shot, probably with my 58d depending on conditions or it might be a 54d if there's a hazard short. What club are you 3/4 swinging to get it to go 80m? Seems like a long way to not have a club that goes in or around that distance. For me I generally go 58 for 80-90 yards, 54 for 90-100 and 50 for 100-110. My decision then is influenced by the hole so if I want to take short out of the equation I'll club up and likewise I'll club down if there is anything nasty long. One other thing I keep in mind is lie, if I'm in the rough I find there's a very good chance my 54 and 50 will produce a flyer, particularly the 50 as its a GW from my iron set with tungsten inserts and all that stuff so I'll adjust my selection on that too which I think is often overlooked by playing partners who wonder why the ball is 20 yards long.

I couldn't disagree more about trying to leave yourself full wedge shots. We are not pros and I can guarantee (not saying you aren't great with that distance but you would be an exception) if you start tracking your stats with your 'preferred' yardage versus simply a shorter shot into the green you will do better from closer to the green. All amateurs have ridiculous expectations when they get inside 100 yards. For an amateur simply getting the ball on the green in that scenario is gaining strokes. If you get it inside 30 feet that's a great outcome. Expecting to spin one back to 10ft like the pros is fantasy stuff for us hackers I'm afraid to say. Once you accept that fact it gets easier to improve IMO as you are managing your expectations. A GIR for the vast majority of us outside the really good players is a great outcome even if its 60 feet from the hole.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357654#Comment_119357654

Exactly this, my god exactly

The closer to the green you are, the better

The further you are from the green, statistically over time the further you'll be with your approaches in proximity to the flag

charlieIRL

I play because I enjoy playing (most of the time) I accepted many years ago that chasing a cut was only stressing me out and I wasn’t enjoying playing.

I now practice my chipping at least once every week even if I’m not playing at the weekend and I go to the range maybe twice a month to hit longer shots. My handicap still hasn’t dropped though, I seem to be stuck where I am. My course management has improved a bit but I do have blow ups and they cost me dearly. If I have a scratch, as hard as I try, it’s nearly always followed up by another one, sometimes more. I’ve had rounds wheee I’ve had 7 or 8 pars (sometimes on the very low index holes) and have 3,4,5 scratches as well. I’ve just accepted that’s part of my game and I get on with it and enjoy every course I get to play now.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357654#Comment_119357654

The problem is that I'm not getting to play or practice often. So if I don't practice them during a round, I don't practice them. And I don't get better at them and then when I end up with them I would just be hoping for the best.

And I think you're underestimating how bad my non-full shots were! I'm not worried about leaving myself 20 footers. I was catching a massive amount of them fat to the point that I could be getting the ball halfway to the green. Or worse, thinning them over the green and putting myself into all sorts of trouble, including lost balls. Throw in a few shanks and pulled shots on top of that. For a while I was averaging about 4.5 shots to get down from 80-120m. Whereas from 120-150m I was likely to hit the green or leave it very close to it. I was about 3.5 in that distance.

My pitching wedge goes about 125, gap wedge 110, sand wedge 85. So in between those distances I'm taking a bit off the swing. And even more than that - since I hit it high, sometimes I'll hit the bigger club and take a little off it rather than hit the more lofted club. because once it starts rising, in a decent wind it can really move.

Longer term, I expect if I can get it to 80m, I'll go for that, because I should be better from that distance than 125-135m. But if a layup can leave me a 125 vs 110 - I'd lean towards the 125. That will probably still be an easier distance for me than the cut back swing.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359456#Comment_119359456

Thats fair enough but that isn't practice. Its just a shot that you have to hit during a round. I wouldn't be making your club selection off the tee based on wanting to 'practice' those distances. If you don't have the time I'd look at other ways to reduce your scores personally but I don't know your game at all and am far from an expert myself!

And I think you're underestimating how bad my non-full shots were! I don't think I am to be honest but you have the stats there by the sounds of it so if that's working for you then fair enough. I think you mentioned you have Arccos or shot scope. I'd take a look at your SG stats in there for the distances you mention rather than number of shots. Should give you a good indication of where you are losing shots against your target handicap.

I hit my clubs high as well but I'd never really be thinking about leaving anything off a shot of that distance. It sounds to me that you are trying to be a bit too precise in your yardages. If you have 115 to a pin for example and its 100 yards to the front of the green then you should be hitting full swing GW, not trying to take 10 yards off a PW which is practically impossible for us amateurs really unless you have dialled in your wedges on the range. For me I use the rangefinder to get the pin but I use Arccos on the Apple Watch and cross check what the distance is between front of green and pin or if there's a bunker or water that I want to be sure to carry I'll go from pin to back of green and take something that will get me somewhere between the two. I'd never shoot the pin and get say 135 and then say 135 is the club I need. I'd be thinking something around 120/125 to get me in the middle of the green. Trying to take something off a PW or GW is a difficult skill that requires a lot of practice. The only club I take something off is my 58d and that's from 80 yards and in where I've done it so often I just have a good feel for the distances as its the only club I use around the greens. I don't bump and run or anything like that.

Just my 2c by the way, others might have a different view completely and your course may play very different to mine!

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353378#Comment_119353378

ah thats where ive been going wrong all this time

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359933#Comment_119359933

You could be right about me being too precise with how far I'm trying to hit it. I don't laser it so just have distances to the front middle and back. The majority of the time I'm just working on distances to the middle and will hit the club closet to that. I'll probably adjust for trouble - if there's a deadzone over the green and my 8 iron will be to the back of the green and 9 iron front it'll be a 9 iron for me.

The difference is with the wedges the gaps can be that bit bigger. So there's probably 15-20m of a difference between a pitching and gap wedge for me and similar to a sandwedge. If a full gap wedge will leave me on the front of the green and there's trouble before the green I won't be hitting that club in all likelihood. But if a full pitching wedge could put me over the green altogether I'll try to take a bit off it. Which is when I'm running into the problem of mishits. Now it's greatly improved for me because I've hit them a lot, but they still wouldn't be a strong part of my game.

But it's a similar thing when a full gap wedge into the wind is just going to up, not forward. I'll be trying to hit a lower lofted club more lightly because that's a shot that will actually work if executed. Which is exactly what this thread is about - taking on the shot you want to be able to hit. Now I'm not talking about taking on a 250 carry with the driver when you hit it 220, but an 80 yard pitch or a cut down 8 iron shouldn't be beyond a fifteen handicapper.

I also don't have across by the way. I go back over the rounds and attribute my dropped shots to parts of my game. So if I have to chip out sideways after a drive - 1 shot. If I've to reload from the tee - 2 shots. If I blade an 80m shot over a green and lose the ball - 2 shots, etc. It's not as simple as I was +18 so look for those 18 shots. Sometimes a bogey is a good score. And sometimes you're on a par 5 in 2 and you 3 putt.

dan_ep82

General advice would be to work on the driver as it will limit your score I'm sure.

However, if your time is limited and you hit your 3w better just use that. Playing once a month and hoping to improve is a big, if not impossible, ask. I'd keep expectations low and enjoy when I do get out.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359933#Comment_119359933

I disagree about being able to take distance off clubs. Controlling your ball flight, particularly in Ireland with wind, is a good skill to have. I'm not saying someone is going to be able to hit exact yardages but even having two shots with a pitching wedge - a full shot, and a more flighted 3/4 shot that takes say 10-15 yards of is very useful. Particularly if you've a shot into the wind where you don't want to be sending a gap wedge up into the sky. And you can always grip down on clubs to take a few yards off but still using a full swing.

This also depends on your handicap and aspirations, I'm off 7 (reversing to 7), and my wedge game used to be my biggest weakness so I practiced. Although my driver is now at fault for my reversing to 7, the joys of golf!

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119362443#Comment_119362443

Oh I don't disagree that its a useful skill, definitely one worth having but I'm saying in the context of people only getting out once or so a week its an area of the game that requires a significant amount of time and effort to get good at. I'm off 9.1 and hoping I can get to 8 by end of season but I know I don't have that sort of shot in my locker at present because I haven't put the time in so I don't even attempt it. I'd have much more confidence in my ability to hit any of my wedges their average distance than trying take something off one.

Yeah your ambitions is half the conversation here, I was just trying to say if you aren't practicing much there are better ways to reduce your score than trying to hit 75% wedges that you don't practice. Though the other part is do you enjoy that challenge? If so then go for it would be my view if that's how you take the most enjoyment from the game.

The Guru 123

For virtually any amateur the driver is the most important club in the bag and if you can't hit it consistently then you need to practice or take a lesson and then practice it until you can. Get the driver right and you'd be amazed how easy it is to make pars.

This idea of hitting 3 wood or long iron or whatever for position or to "play safe" is nonsense almost all of the time. Driver is an easier club to hit than either of those 2 and as obvious as this is, it is still worth saying, a driver gets you further down the hole so there's less opportunity to make a mess of the hole.

There's very, very few people I've seen that can't hit their driver well but can hit a consistent 3 wood.

I hit my driver on every single hole unless it's the case that at driver distance there's some trouble or the whole narrows at the driver distance etc but on most courses that'll be maybe 2 holes in the round.

Admittedly I'm very different to the OP, I'm a scratch golfer and I play or do some practice basically every day, but I still think what I'm saying rings true at all levels of golf from what I've observed.

And I certainly know from my experience that I find it just as easy to hit the driver straight as a 3 wood and the driver offers the following advantages

1) Most obviously, if you hit both well you are further down the hole and closer to the green.

2) If you hit both in trouble you'll still be closer to the green (easier to hack on to the green from trees/rough 75 yards away than from 110.

3) A mediocre hit driver that stays in play will likely end up at a similar distance to where a good 3 wood would have anyway, a mishit with the 3 wood could leave you miles back.

blue note

It all comes down to in play / not in play. The problem for the driver with a lot of people is that if you swing relatively fast, you can be prone to a massive slice on it. A relatively slow swing, or even average and you might get away with slicing it and still have a shot. But if you're hitting it 60 yards offline, it's not your best club for scoring.

Whereas people tend not to have as dramatic a slice with a three wood. And definitely not with a 4 iron.

But if you only have time to golf 1-2 times per month and only get to the range once a month if you're lucky, you won't improve with the driver unless you hit it. It will take months to notice any improvement. Years to get it to a stage where you might call it fixed.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363056#Comment_119363056

I think it comes down to ambition/playing ability really. If you are playing off mid handicap say 8-14ish then you won't score well IMO without driver. If you've a higher handicap say in the 20s where you might pick up a couple of points with a double bogey then its a different conversation. That context is probably missing from some of our views here. For me a double bogey or above is generally the death knell for a good scoring round whereas for others its no big deal. Therefore taking 3/4 good shots to get to the green having taken iron off the tee isn't as big a deal as it would be for a lower cap player.