If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
The threat of physical invasion is very remote no question about that. But the threat of been attacked is not. Russia attacked and caused upwards of 100m euro in damage to our health system with their cyberattack never mind the actual damage it caused to people because of the disruption to health services.
But first and foremost the argument I hear about well we should not spend the money on defense its better spent on A B or a C. There is no reason why we cannot fix the fundamental problems we face as a society such as housing and spend the money to develop a legitimate and capable defense and security of our country. It is not an either or situation. We can do both. Further more we are a member of the EU a collective from which we have gained enormous benefit over the decades and from which we of course benefit still greatly. We live in a free and open society and have a democratic system for all its ills that is pretty robust and progressive. We have an obligation and a duty to play our part albeit a small one but nonetheless play our part in defending our democracy and free and open society. To say well the US or irony of ironies the UK will take care of it for us is at best utterly selfish saying sure we want all the benefits of the collective that is the EU but we don't want to pay anything towards the costs of defending that collective.
We spent roughly 1.5% of our GDP during the mid 80's on defense spending now I know that number is distorted these days in Ireland by the multi nationals but we should spend 1.5% of our adjusted GDP on developing a capable and legitimate defense and security capability and do our duty in defending our country and not asking others to pay for what we should be doing ourselves. We live in a partnership with most of our European neighbours who have similar free and open societies and democratic systems and we should all stand together in the face of the sheer evil that is the Russian dictatorship.
No.
We live in a republic. Let us have a conversation and then vote. I will vote not to join nato and very confident that would win. There is more risk of us being in a war in nato than outside.
We have a housing crises. Housing along with food being the only necessity you need to live but some fools want us to spend billions more on defending ourselves against an attack that never will come or getting in another's nations dispute.
Is there any example where a democratic country like Ireland has been invaded by a country it has no cultural history with? The only country we have history with is the UK and considering they want to dump the part of Ireland they have and are also in Nato themselves futher reduces the logic of joining. We are not in the same boat as Finland who were part of the USSR and have russia bordering to its east. That is a no brainer for them but us it makes no sence.
I certainly believe we need to get serious about our own defense and security and do so asap but in all fairness I would say the most vulnerable country in the right here and right now in Europe is Moldova.
You will never get an answer appart from UK/USA or something. Disregarding we sit on the largest internet cables into the EU from the USA with zero power to protect them. So unless the USA is sitting subs off the Irish coast 24/7 they are gone.
Do you think Ireland should join NATO?
But on other threads you say the opposition are useless and ineffective to defend the government, now you are saying the opposition are effective to ...eh, defend a government who are ignoring what Mark believes to be the case - 'that we are the most vunerable country in all of Europe'.
Cake and eating it methinks.
Outsider looking in. Ireland needs to grow up on this topic. Either admit to the EU we are a weak link asking the Brits to dig us out and the Usa. Or take the steps needed to protect Irelands borders. Take for example if the uk enforces there rules on the North there will have to be a border in Ireland to enforce the EU rules. I highly doubt the EU will be paying for that border.
NATO party in Madrid looks like good craic. The Australians and South Koreans were even invited. Everyone plotting the downfall of that scaldy prick in Moscow in sunshine, and we're gazing at our shoes wondering is our neutrality the most righteous thing since the Holy Mary appeared at Knock.
To be fair, Coveney and Varadkar have said that the country needs to have a conversation about joining NATO. The problem is that there are reckless opposition politicians whipping up a mob with pitchforks against it. There are examples in history of dangerous opposition politicians whipping up mobs and where it ends up.
I'm referring to the thread title Francie.
But, you want to go down the rabbit hole of blame. Clear to see what you are up to.
Not answering the question asked again.
Why is that? I know why so won't bother with the usual back and forth.
You believe we are 'the most vunerable country in ALL of Europe' and your government is doing diddly squat about it.
There was never really a need to join NATO before, even though Ireland came close in the 1950's.
As the thread title says, "Is it time to join NATO", the question is, is the time right, to join NATO.
You think not, because you see NATO as bad as Putin and Russia, which of course is untrue, ahistorical and right out of the ex-KGB talking points, but alas you are free to your uninformed Putin-Bot point of view. This is Ireland, not Russia ;)
If we are 'truly the most vunerable country in all of Europe' it won't be the oppositions fault if that is found to be true, will it?
Why have the government (you know those guys and gals with the power) not joined NATO if this statement is true Mark.
Pointing at the opposition is not the answer by the way.
Vulnerable because some think there is no need to be in a Security Alliance. The opposition has been shown in recent research to be one of the most friendly parties in Europe toward Russia. They ranked in the top 10% I believe.
Of course, if any party wanted to up the Defence Budget, there would be outcry and talk about the homeless, etc... Again, there was never a call from any of the opposition party to seriously up Irelands Defence spending.
If we truly are the most vunerable country in all of Europe' surely it is a savage indictment of our governing parties that we are not already in NATO?
Why would they leave us vunerable? What are they waiting for there is no need for a referendum...any idea Mark?
All clear now for Finland and Sweden to join NATO.
Ireland is now the most vulnerable country in all of Europe when it comes to its own national security.
No to NATO. We're a neutral country, end of. Any politician here trying to push it is moving into treasonous territory.
Puppet politicians (and anybody else) are always free to go fight in a war themselves. But they won't, of course... 😄
Flanagan calls for Option 2 immediately and pathway to 3. Given he’s a unionist at heart does this mean a formal bilateral with the UK? At least Defence finally getting the money it’s entitled to. We live in hope.
Certain countries spend next to nothing on their NATO membership (Luxembourg and Iceland for example), and there's no one compelling them to even try to meet NATO defence spending targets. They enjoy Article 5 protection, defence cooperation and intelligence sharing arrangements all the same.
Defence spending is the strict preserve of each sovereign nation. No magic money trees required.
As an aside, is anyone else noticing the ressurection of the magic money tree patter among our politicians? Heather Humphreys was out in her aborist regelia pruning the non-existant tree yesterday in the media.
It truly is Schrödinger's tree. It exists! Wait, it exists not! A wonderful tree when rendered in watercolour.
We keep getting told their is no magic money tree anytime the opposition propose anything.
Have the Govt a secret magic money tree they can dip into when required that they think we could join NATO
yes correct you have form for lies and all else.
the grown up discussion over nato has happened and it's a no from the people.
When was this now?
nato brings no guarantees and we would be forced to send our army off to be slaughtered in another iraq nonsense in return for we might if possible.
Forced to? No Gurantess?
Were Iceland forced to send their troops to Iraq?
The utter lies, nonsense, inane, made up gibberish is outstanding. This poster has form though.
I mean not really. The only countries who can invade us logistically without going around other countries are US, France and UK, and if any of them want to, it won't matter, we're done anyway.
Attacking us is in effect attacking the UK so might as well just leave the UK protect us anyway. Cyber security and monitoring airspace and protecting fishing grounds is the only real defense argument imo, there's no need to invest in anything past that or join NATO.
We shouldn't join NATO but at the same time we need to get serious about cyber security, monitoring our airspace and coastline, plus setting up an intelligence agency to monitor local and foreign threats (most notably some loyalist secessionists and the rogue state in Downing Street among others). Continue the peacekeeping while giving our personnel decent equipment ,good pay and conditions without further delay.
The world that existed before Feb 24th isn't coming back and it's time we put our big boy pants on without hearing the usual crap about doing a bit of hard work as a nation in doing something which isn't me feinism.
NATO was not involved in Iraq.
it is more grown up to not join nato then to join.
the people do not want it and there is no reason for us to do so.
I'd be surprised if, in any analysis, the UK was not in fact the greatest threat to Ireland. There is a reason they were essentially the only ones to invade and rule Ireland over the last 1,000 years.
While Ireland certainly could do with increasing its naval power, calling the proposed Russian wargames the "first shot of the Ukraine war" is both insanely self-centred and somewhat offensive.
Well why did you mention it in answer to a statement that they lack conviction today?
Go ahead MM/LV/ER - propose that we join, what is stopping them?
Revisit the start of the thread, plenty of discussion about it as to why they didn't join. Nothing to do with convictions.
You were part of the discussion by the way ;)
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