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Old thread here......
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057962937/mayo-gaa-discussion-part-4#latest
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Green Peter - Permanent
Man Vs ManUre until 9/05/23
That was 16 and think it was bastic that picked it off the ground
Like Parlance says, the appointment will (or at least should be) as much about the team a candidate assembles as the lead candidate themselves. Most/All of the possible candidates have weaknesses which could possibly be covered by having a good backroom team.
The talk is that the gap between club and county has widened, and that's where I would have started off thinking. But successful club teams these days are extremely "professional" in their set-up. I wonder is it just us thinking that the gap has widened rather than it being any bigger than before.
Intercounty is a completely different ball game to what it was but it doesn't fall down on one man like it used to. A lot of it is about assembling the right management team / coaches / backroom staff to assist the manager.
My gut would be that Andy would be great to have involved in the management team, but that the main job would be too big of a step at this point in time.
I often wonder about Ciaran Mc's influence this year as well. He seemed to have a bit of a diminished role Vs last year but that might be reading into the supposed falling out... and our forward play was always going to suffer without Tommy and Ryan. But I wouldnt mind seeing him involved again.
Rochford, Andy, Ciaran Mc would look good on paper. Rochford strikes me as a manager who would let them grow into their own roles.
I maybe wrong but I would see Dempsey wanting his own team and being less open to that kind of thing.
I said I didn't fancy Rochford a few hours ago.... Ah, I give up. I'm rambling on.
I guess we'll only know if a good choice is made a year or so after the appointment is made. Whoever it is, I hope it works out.
Based on results his second term was a success also, but for poor refereeing we'd have won the 2015 final when Small picked it off the ground
I'd keep that man as far away from Mayo football as would be humanly possible, and increase the distance further again if I could. He caused immeasurable and irreparable damage to Mayo GAA and his most recent appointment was a sham and a disaster from start to finish.
A wum for espousing the virtues of Jim McGuinness, a man from west Donegal. Grand
I used the words hammering. Even if you include the 2012 and 2021 versions of Dublin in that greatest team of all time argument (which almost noone does btw), those games were 3 point wins and a last gasp normal time save and ET win. I don't think its the same personally but anyway well done for picking on one tiny comment and ignoring all the actual stuff relevant to the discussion. You must be a bit tetchy this week, understandable
There was Pat Holmes as well. It's rare other counties even go back to consider a manager, but mayo certainly have a habit of it.
something no other county could even get close to doing
Really, something no other county could even get close to doing ?
Except Mayo who beat them twice and drew with them twice and Kerry who drew with them once.
In your book beating them and drawing with them is not even close.
I know you're from Galway and a WUM and you are doing a fine job of it.
How was McGuinness not able to follow up on 2012? In 2014 they hammered the greatest team of all time, something no other county could even get close to doing. They lost a tense final after their keeper kicked the ball straight to Donaghy for a late goal
His 4 year stint (plus the one u21 year) was one of the most impressive stints ever by a manager. 2010 brings an u21 team to an All Ireland final where they miss a last gasp penalty to win it. 2011 brings a lowly D2 team, known previously as a "crowd of wasters" to an Ulster. 2012 All Ireland. 2013 had a down year. 2014 mentioned above and quits afterwards, with the county not making a semi final since.
I don't like his character tbh, find him slightly arrogant but his achievements get completely overshadowed by the "death of football" stuff that its remembered for and that was happening well before he arrived. It's possible his methods are outdated but then again he's adapted his style quickly already once, and was agile at the time and still isn't that old. He'd be incredibly worth a roll of the dice for ye imo. Now there is also a Donegal job up for grabs and he may not want to return at all. Worth finding out though
I think Andy Moran would be a good choice but only if he has a very strong management team around him, he certainly has the character to lift and motivate a team whatever about the other skills required.
Or perhaps it is time, in this day and age for Mayo to be the most pioneering team in the country, embrace diversity, and appoint the first female manager to an intercounty side. How about Joanne Cantwell pacing the sideline?
On Andy, he had a shot at managing Ballagh before Leitrim and it didn't amount to much. He has no CV and is too close to these lads IMO.
I'd be very surprised if Dempsey was a done deal, hes not exactly a company man.
Dempseys minor team were excellent, it was the year O'Shea and Walsh were on it, if we had held onto the ball at one end we had it won, instead we took a silly shot that dropped short and they got an equaliser. The replay was in Longford and went to extra time, Hennelly dropped one straight to Conor O'Neill. Kyle Coney was Tyrones star man. Having said all that its 14 years ago!
I've heard this a few times and it baffles me
We've gone back to three managers. Mayo 2004 are probably the worst team to contest an All Ireland since the 80s, that was Maughan's second term.
O'Mahoney was a wash out
Horan has brought a national league, two finals, a semi and a quarter with a team that was supposedly in complete transition, we lost Seamie, Vaughan, Higgins, Boyler, Parsons, Clarke, Caff, Barrett and Andy from that team.
That's a fair post.
For me the gap between club and county has widened hughly in the last 10 years,this is magnified when we're talking about a project like Mayo.
I think anybody who hasn't been there before is going to struggle to adjust,its a real sink or swim scenario and even those that will swim will need time to adjust.We have a squad now that can win Sam,we don't have the luxury of a bedding in period of a couple of seasons.
For this reason I'd go with Andy or Rochie.I wouldn't be too worried about Morans closeness with the current team,he has shown he can be ruthless enough and is very driven,I don't think he'd be worried about stepping on a few toes if it meant the ultimate prize. Andy surely would be more of a risk or a punt but he knows the standards,can maintain them and his energy, enthusiasm and belief coupled with football brain could be the thing to gel it all together and give us that lift.
To be clear I mean no disrespect to Ray Dempsey by pointing out he is a clubman.
When I say that I mean he began to engage in this 'we are lucky to have this group of players in mayo' type stuff. It feeds into this superstar narrative that has caused issues in mayo in the last for me.
Kerry dont engage in it and gavins dublin were active against it too. For them, the players were the lucky ones at all times as they get to represent something bigger than all of them, not the other way around.
I know it is a small thing, but look at man utd under ferguson, who always talked up the club. When he left it became about individual stars and the performances became individualistic. That narrative around a squad is important.
Another view from outside; Mayo have a habit of going back to the well to replace managers and no success to show for it.
I've heard a few people say Horan was too loyal to certain players. Don't agree with that at all. If anything, he moved on from Higgins and Boyle a bit too soon.
There has been a massive turnover of players the last 3 seasons.
Rochford is close to the modern game and has a proven track record at that level.
Mcstay is a nice guy but has never been on the biggest stage,he's way too far removed from the modern game.
I know it's all about opinions and maybe I'm the one who's wrong but I don't see how Mcstay could be a better choice than Rochford by any known metric.
it is, but i was correcting an argument that he is likely to leave because hes of the oldest 2 on the pitch.
A view from a roscommon man re mcstay - he is magnificent if you have the panel already assembled and just need the bit extra to get over the line. I seen him in action in Roscommon Gaels and St Brigids and on both occasions he got absolute max out of good to excellent teams. He's tactically astute, decisive and players generally like him.
He did a good job with roscommon IMHO, but hadn't full support after the "dream team" fell apart. And roscommon can't afford not to be 100% pulling in one direction. So roscommon views are mixed on him.
I honestly don't think mcguiness could do it for ye. What he did in donegal could only be done with his home county... Lads put so much into it.
Ye know yer selves where the team is at. IMHO that panel hasn't an all Ireland in them even if lads are early 30s and have been great servants. There's a job to keep some, turn others into panel players and impact subs and cut lose a few more. Ye should have excellent young lads from the last few years - now is their time.
Best of luck with the search.
I'd be shocked if Dempsey doesn't get it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more or less already a done deal. The county board won't pick anyone outside the county imo.
Whether that's a good appointment or not, I wouldn't be sure...
Mcstay and moran fall into the same category for me - too nice. There is going to need to be someone who is going to make some tougher calls, like horan did in his first stint. Someone who will keep a bit of distance will be required I feel.
Personally, id like to see a break from this narrative of we are lucky to have the players we have. It is all wrong. Mayo are a footballing stronghold and the way I see it, players should be privileged to wear the jersey for every second that they do, not the other way around. I feel that this is where horan went down. He became loyal to his players rather than the county. Ive no doubt it was bourne out of frustration with the cb, but it is still a bad move as regards keeping the team in the right mindframe. In kerry, they are lucky to wear the jersey, end of. We need to instill the same.
Agree re the importance, I don't know who the right man is but it is a huge appointment.
Interesting to read your take on Dempsey/Moran.
I would be edging more towards Dempsey myself but can see why Andy might be in the running.
But is Leitrim really "at this level"? I'm not sure if there's a huge gap between what Dempsey achieved with Knockmore and what Andy may have learned in Leitrim.
I would say it's a little unfair to class Dempsey a "clubman". He has managed the minors and u21's (albeit not great tenures iirc), brought his club to impressive heights, so he has ticked all the boxes that someone can tick before making the jump to intercounty senior manager. It does seem a bigger jump these days than it used to be... And most of the talk seems to be regarding guys with intercounty experience for that reason.
To play devils advocate or to go to the other extreme, would we be basing Andy on his podcast performances? That's harsh and not what I feel, but I think there's something behind it and it really would be a gamble at this stage of his managerial career. He's an extremely impressive guy and seems to know what's required inside out but he really is unproven / untested.
I just wouldn't be leaning towards that gamble given the importance of the appointment.
McStay is not an option if he wants to include McHale.
With all due respect to McHale he was a great player but is not suitable to current day management structures.
Too much "laps of the field" than "studying video " for this day and age.
Fitzmaurice is definitely out.
He's a teacher in Dingle and although he won an All Ireland he did not have to go through Dublin to do it, even in Kerry he is poorly regarded.
I agree with you on McGuiness, he did a great job with Donegal in 2012 and it was a very unique achievement, but he has not been able to follow up on it.
Not sure why people would be against Gavin - he's literally in the top two football managers ever. I don't think it's at all realistic that he would consider it but if he would, I'd bite his hand off
Andy Moran is a definite no for me
Too inexperienced and too close to some of the current playing squad .
I like Rochford . A lot . If he does get the gig again I’ll be fine with that but I do wonder about the wisdom of going back again .
Kevin Mcstay ?
I mean you are letting previous performances colour your judgement of his performance against kerry. He done ok against kerry, better than most in the middle third. You arent actually using any performance indicators from the kerry match to judge his performance so im not sure why you are referencing them.
In fact the only thing you are referencing is a black card that was ridiculously harsh and to most observers, a very poor call.
Just to add I think this managerial appointment is the most important one there's ever been,we are at a juncture now.We have the players to land the big one but we need to maintain the standards whilst also getting a bit of a bounce and fresh voice.
Rochie has the experience,respect and is a great tactician (it was fairly clear he didn't have much input in donegal this year)He knows whats involved at this level,I wouldn't be worried that we're having a manager back again,that's irrelevant if he can do the job.I think he would be the safest bet.
My own preference would be to be brave and take a punt on Andy Moran.He knows the standards,knows what it's like inside the bubble and has a great football brain.He has very little intercounty experience but has more than the current favourite for the gig.
A clubman like Dempsey is not the answer,he has never operated at this level,now I'm not saying he couldn't learn but that takes a few years,we need to keep things rolling and up it a few %.
Agreed re Gavin.
It'll be interesting to see who gets it. While there's a bit of work to do there, there's a great foundation to build on.
Having Tommy and Ryan coming into the team next year is a huge plus. If one of Carr or Carney really push on / can be developed, then brilliant. We won't be far off.
I actually think that the big challenge next year is to strengthen our impact players/bench. The first 15 or so will probably look after itself to a degree. There's a bit of work to be done there but nothing crazy. But as was mentioned, there's a lot of the squad in a bit of no man's land.
If a new manager can get 5,6,7 players who can make a significant impact, and get them and the team used to their roles, then it would be of huge benefit.
While we have a big squad of lads take can do a bit of a job from time to time, it's never really certain who those guys are, when they'll be used, or if they will deliver. They are fillers more so than impact players.
If some of the older players could be transitioned into a few of these roles, it would be great. Cillian, Aiden, Kevin McL, DOC could be the bones of a great impact bench if used wisely.
I would love to see the new manager focus in on 22/23/24 key players. I think we've suffered a little from having 30 odd players who might be /could be called upon on any given weekend.
Think it's personal circumstances that will be the key factor for these guys.
Some have young families, others may have career aspirations and need to dedicate time to this.
Maybe an exciting appointment may re-energise but nothing very obvious in the offing currently. Maybe McLoughlin hangs around if Dempsey gets the job but even he is feeling the effects of time and miles on the clock.
Difficult one, if it is to be Dempsey we'd be livid if that was announced in advance of any club championship
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