I'd have no issue with ending DP if there was a plan to replace it with something more effective... but there's not. It's simply the case of ending DP, and... saying things will work out because life is beautiful.
I’m not going to say you have no clue what you’re talking about, because clearly you do by the way you’re exaggerating about the alternative to direct provision and portraying it as a negative, as though anyone opposed to it is in the same position as politicians who care about the public mood. DP was portrayed as being a temporary measure at it’s introduction 20 years ago, and while I’m not aware of anyone being there 15 years, 12 years seems to be the longest, and they weren’t happy about it.
Asylum seekers won’t be flocking here for benefits or a free house, they might be under that impression if they were fans of reading mucky media like Gript, but that’s an exaggeration for dramatic effect. In reality what’s likely to happen is they’ll go in one of the “family hubs” while they’re put on the local authority housing list, bumping up the figures of “homeless” in Ireland.
There isn’t going to be any hope of a six month turnaround time in cases nor is anyone going to be denied the right to appeal, you know that already too, and the people who need help ARE getting it, the same people you’d categorise as economic freeloaders according to your own assessment criteria. It’s not asylum seekers are the economic freeloaders, it’s the Irish people who created the system by which they are it’s main beneficiaries - the oxygen thieves in Dáil Éireann.
As far as I am aware, the current plan is to provide accommodation to refused asylum claimants for a period of 6 months, paying them the DEA during that time, in order to allow them to “organise departure”, which is a revealing way of describing the White Paper’s interest in deportation enforcement.
Shh, you can't mention religion and fundamentalist terrorism. It doesn't exist, you know that, it's all just people with mental health issues, nothing to be seen here, move along. Sweden used to be such a lovely country, then it all went horribly wrong. I can't think what happened over the past number of years that might have caused that, well I can, but I'd be banned if I posted it.
I'm sure that none of the Irish people waiting on Oncology services will mind at all that the government have been using air ambulances to bring Ukrainian cancer patients to Ireland, because I'm absolutely, 100% sure that the Irish won't be left waiting behind the Ukrainians at all, totally 100% sure.
Anyone talking about ending direct provision has no clue about it or is deliberately painting a worse picture of it to create drama such as certain NGOs. It's a red herring, if we were putting people in tents as other European countries do then there might be some basis for the outrage I read about. Is it perfect? No of course not but unless people are actually advocating for every person who mutters the word asylum at Dublin airport to get "own door accommodation" i.e. a house or apartment and never leave then what exactly is the alternative???? I find it funny when there are debates about this the person saying how terrible DP is has no suggestions on what should replace it because they know virtue signalling will only get you so far and the public mood will turn when asylum seekers already in Europe will flock here for the benefits and a free house to boot.
People happily sitting in direct provision for 15 years due to endless appeals and judicial reviews until they are given permission to remain (PTR) as they are here so long is the problem.
The system needs to be done in 6 months and at that point if you are unsuccessful you are removed from the country. No sob story BS your just gone. Then the people who actually need the help are getting it without flooding the country with economic freeloaders.
/Rant
Do you think a discriminatory employer gives a jot whether the Black person in front of them is from Nigeria, Cameroon, or France? Do you think a discriminatory employer wouldn't take a different view if another person from Nigeria, Cameroon, or France was White?
The potential candidates wouldn’t have to be in front of them though. It would just be a matter of reading their CV, or application form* or reading their bio on LinkedIn, seeing they have their pronouns in their profile and thinking “Oh fcuk no!”…
On that last one I figured I’d give them a shot at an interview, and it was like interviewing a completely different person. I was misled by the pronouns thing, but the point I’m making is that employers are just ordinary people who have their own biases and prejudices towards and against people in numerous ways, and will discriminate accordingly.
I know it’s confirmation bias on my part, but research has found that employers are more likely to hire candidates closer to themselves -
Unconscious bias toward people who are of the same race, education level, economic status and have the same personality, fears or values influences who you hire much more than you think. Scientists now have tests that can measure just how biased you are. You subconsciously look for points of similarity in everyone you meet because similarities make you feel safer.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbescoachescouncil/2018/05/01/why-you-mistakenly-hire-people-just-like-you/?sh=307224e83827
The article makes the point that these biases are unconscious, but they’re not, they’re very much a conscious decision.
*I’m aware of a few companies who specifically ask about candidates ethnicity and other cultural indicators specifically for the purposes of hiring with the aim of increasing diversity among their employees.
America is just one really odd country. Stating the obvious, I know, but the whole “Asians have higher employment rates” is a bit misleading. A number of Indian IT firms in particular are often accused of some shady stuff in their employment practices -
https://www.computerworld.com/article/2495577/tata-agrees-to-pay--30m-to-settle-employee-lawsuit-in-us.amp.html
https://qz.com/india/1478757/tcs-wins-class-action-discrimination-suit-by-former-us-employees/amp/
It’s not just Indian employers in the US who are accused of abusing the visa system, American employers like Disney are just as handy at it too -
https://www.hindustantimes.com/business/us-disneyland-sacks-250-workers-hires-indians-on-h-1b/story-0DInvwXVqNOkoFWcUKxtYL_amp.html
If I were an End Direct Provision advocate, I’d be less confident than that, the White Paper was drafted pre-Ukraine and was based on the assumption that there would be 3,500 asylum claims per annum. Last I read, White Paper staff were seconded to the Ukrainian response effort.
"In Oslo on Friday a man of Iranian decent went on a shooting spree in a gay bar, killing and injuring people who'd just gone for a night out. Same guy was a petty criminal known to the police, aren't they all? I'm sure he had mental health issues, don't they all? What is it about Friday's, I'm sure it'll come to me."
I suppose religious fundamentalism could be classified as a mental illness, yet we seem to be very keen on importing a lot of it.
-quality controll?
My girlfriend and her mates got their nails done here. Highly recommended she said.
You love to see it.
So this morning my view on multiculturalism is not positive.
So a typical morning then
Don't worry about Direct Provision. The government is working hard to end it by 2024.
IIRC it's Cameroon that tops the unfortunate poll on unemployment.
Of course plenty of Black people work in Ireland Fandymo and a goodly proportion of them are Nigerians, including highly educated Nigerians, actual "doctors and engineers". That doesn't get away from the fact that in every single multicultural Western nation being Black, regardless of origin, means you're far more likely than the native population to be unemployed, employed in entry level jobs, under educated, in gaol, in poverty or near it. There are many complex reasons for it, but it remains a fact.
Being Black is a huge part of it. Regardless of origin. Do you think a discriminatory employer gives a jot whether the Black person in front of them is from Nigeria, Cameroon, or France? Do you think a discriminatory employer wouldn't take a different view if another person from Nigeria, Cameroon, or France was White? In the US for example first generation African immigrants do better on average than her own population of Black Americans, but the following generations tend to lose that advantage.
Forgive me for my memory being a bit sketchy, but for some reason I seem to remember the Congo sticking out as either the country from which there were the most unemployed immigrants in Ireland, or it was described as “the rape capital of the world”…
Could be both, but my geography isn’t up to much either when you mentioned Central Africa and I thought of Columbia and “the Colombia Three” who were allowed back into the country -
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/colombia-3-facing-passport-inquiry-by-gardai-25970319.html
At least Colombia gave us Shakira and cheap cocaine, has to count for something 🤔
In the past 24 hours I've read the following stories:
A 15 year old homeless chap was trafficked to Britain from off the streets of Lagos by a former Nigerian Vice President and his wife, both academics in Britain. They brought the kid in on the passport of a 41 year old man and the kid had no idea that he was to be used as an organ donor for the pairs daughter who has kidney failure. At one of the many medical checks before the procedure a medic picked up on the fact that the kid had no idea what was going on and put a stop to it.
2000 Moroccan men forced their way over the border across Europe's only border with Africa, crushing and trampling people as they went. Quite a scary scene.
A Ukrainian woman on holiday with her boyfriend in America arrived to Ireland to be given free everything, including a stall in a very high profile arcade. Why? Virtue signalling, as well as all the good publicity for the people who own the arcade. Why is it National newspaper worthy that some random Ukrainian woman has a stall in Dublin?
In Oslo on Friday a man of Iranian decent went on a shooting spree in a gay bar, killing and injuring people who'd just gone for a night out. Same guy was a petty criminal known to the police, aren't they all? I'm sure he had mental health issues, don't they all? What is it about Friday's, I'm sure it'll come to me.
Yesterday as I was waiting for a cab a really unsavoury looking Ukrainian guy was stood with his mug of tea beside me waiting for the young Irish woman who was down on her knees scrubbing the door to the building he and many others from Ukraine are living in. That left a bad taste in the mouth. Is there a reason that unemployed people can't clean up after themselves? Ah well, I suppose cleaning up after asylum seekers and refugees might be a booming industry for young Irish people.
It is literally because they're Black and the passage quoted backs that up and it's a mainstay of reportage on the matter in any "multicultural" Western nation you care to pick.
Absolute horse shyte. Plenty of black people work in Ireland. It’s Nigerians and Central African Republic citizens who have the highest rates of unemployment. Two countries out of a MASSIVE continent.
never gonna happen here
I think there a lot of confusion amongst the general public about immigration. I have no problem with immigration such as people coming over from whenever on a visa and working and paying their way. That's a good thing for everyone BUT I do have a problem with European asylum being so widely abused that it literally does not function.
These are the people sitting in the "horror camps" that are direct provision (I'd love to know what doable alternative people suggest but that's another story). There's a 700% increase in asylum applications this year with projected 15k in 2022 and this does not include the Ukrainian special scheme which is currently at approximately 38k.
Most of the people claiming international protection are economic migrants this is borne out by initial recommendation results - about 70% are refused but then most appeal. I think asylum needs a shake up in Europe. IMO you should not be able to just claim asylum by virtue alone of being from a country outside the EU. If there is no recognised war or issue in your home country then you better have a very good claim for claiming asylum such as proveable political persecution etc. It's ridiculously open at the moment and who could blame people using it as a get into any EU country and be accommodated for free, be able to work after 6 months etc etc. Totally unsustainable situation as no one ever leaves.
I would suggest that by supporting this idea, nay dream of multiculturalism, you're avoiding the fact and hoping somehow, someway, this time, Ireland will be magically different. It already isn't and we're barely a generation into this mess of a politic.
I don’t “support” multiculturalism though, because as far as I’m concerned it’s not something that either can or cannot be supported, it’s just a manifestation of tribalism, and the idea of culture manifests itself in different ways among different groups in society. That’s why this whole idea of some people trying to argue we should be looking after the natives first, all too often translates as an argument that their concerns are far more specific to themselves and their own ideas for society. They’re quick to want to tell the natives who don’t share their ideas that they too can get in the boat.
It is literally because they're Black and the passage quoted backs that up and it's a mainstay of reportage on the matter in any "multicultural" Western nation you care to pick. They are discriminated against where this occurs precisely because they're Black and not White. And this is also the case in every single other "multicultural" Western nation. It's not the only factor of course, East Asians aren't White Europeans and it's not as if they haven't and don't experience racism or face discrimination, yet they do better on average than even the native White populations and in every single other "multicultural" Western nation too.
It’s not because they’re black though, it’s because they’re African.
😁 Yeah, for me that, annual Trocaire boxes and other such drives were basically old style "pennies for the Black babies", over there. Americans gave millions towards Live Aid, yet their own "Black babies" were living in poverty as out of sight as they could put them.
Not once though, have I ever tried to escape that fact.
For all the talk of “importing issues” from other countries, the one thing we have so far somewhat successfully managed to avoid is importing other countries politics. We have our own unique tribalisms, and in determining why there is higher unemployment rates among the black population in Ireland, it isn’t because they’re black -
And we haven't imported other country's politics, yet. We will need some of that "magic" to avoid that too.
Sure, all those years ago we sang and pledged to "feed the world", so long as that "world" didn't show up to our dinner table.
Ain’t that the truth! It’s only funny because it’s the one memory that sticks out in my head in contrast to the way things are now, and the way things were then. It was the school concert in the 80’s and I was one of the children doing blackface to sing that song.
Children nowadays wouldn’t be able to relate, because while finding black children to play the part wouldn’t be a problem, they’d probably be thinking “WTF, I’m telling Twitter about this!”. All I could think of at the time was at least the boot polish disguised my embarrassment 😂
We agree here, or I would say our "caring" is uncomfortably biased and kneejerk. QV the difference in our response between Syrians and Ukrainians. 3000 over ten years, triple checked along the way with the former, over ten times that in three months, not checked at all, the doors and purse flung open with the latter. Even the Twitterari friendly pics of a dead toddler washed up on a beach didn't sway things. If only Syrians had been that little bit paler...
Then again it comes as no surprise to me, because I prefer if sadly to deal with realities and the realities of human nature and the hierarchies of care and perceptions within that. Sure, all those years ago we sang and pledged to "feed the world", so long as that "world" didn't show up to our dinner table. There's most definitely a preferred guest list there and the history of any Western "multicultural" nation will demomstrate that starkly.
1) The vast majority of those who arrived on our shores from beyond the EU pre the birthright loophole closure never saw direct provision.
That’s a bit vague, but DP was established in ‘99, the birthright loophole was closed five years later. If you’re just referring to non-EU immigrants as a whole, then they weren’t going to be in DP if they weren’t seeking asylum or refugee status -
Direct provision was originally introduced as an emergency measure in 1999. In 2002 there were almost 12,000 applications for asylum. At the start of 2014, there were 4,360 people in direct provision, with more than 3,000 people having been in the system for two or more years. At the same time, there were more than 1,600 people who have spent five or more years in direct provision.
There were approximately 7,400 adults and children living in the 38 direct provision centres across 17 counties in Ireland by the end of April 2020.
In February 2021, the Government of Ireland announced a plan to end direct provision by 2024.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_provision
2) Of course Africans and others not engaging in the labour market are not the cause of our economic woes, but they are adding to them and bringing new intercultural/ethnic woes with them.
Adding to them by how much though? That’s another vague claim that there’s truth to it, but how much of an issue is it really? How much of that is down to how African immigrants are perceived? They’re unlikely to be perceived in the same way Mary O’ Rourke does in that wonderful gaffe way back in 2006 -
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/low-remark-from-a-high-place-1.1001923
3) The inescapable fact is nowhere, not a single European nation, with different histories and different politics and policies, over shorter and longer periods of time, has successively integrated extra EU immigrants into their societies without the exact same trends playing out in every single case. Indeed if we extend the criteria to all the New World ex European colonies founded on immigration(and conquest), they show the exact same trends too.
Not once though, have I ever tried to escape that fact. For all the talk of “importing issues” from other countries, the one thing we have so far somewhat successfully managed to avoid is importing other countries politics. We have our own unique tribalisms, and in determining why there is higher unemployment rates among the black population in Ireland, it isn’t because they’re black -
My models have not accounted for all of the African disadvantage. Even after we take account of individual characteristics, migration related variables and the risk of having participated in the asylum system, Africans still stand out as disadvantaged in the Irish labour market: African women are only about two-thirds as likely to be at work, and more than twice as likely to be unemployed, as their Irish counterparts, and African men also suffer lower employment and higher unemployment rates. In this they differ from other immigrant groups when the range of influential factors are controlled for. In seeking to account for this remaining unexplained African disadvantage we can take note of the previous research findings that Black Africans in Ireland are a great deal more likely than any other immigrant groups to report having experienced discrimination while looking for work (Kingston et al., 2013; Kingston et al, 2015). This would suggest that the disadvantages experienced by Africans in the Irish labour market appear to be due to a combination of restrictive policies the part of the state and discriminatory practices on the part of employers.
https://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publications/workingpapers/gearywp201816.pdf
If Ireland cared about refugees…
We don’t.
Absolute horse shyte. If Ireland cared about refugees, the absolute scammers who are stealing resources from them would be repatriated out rather than given charity hand over fist.
Successive Irish Government have had about the same success as their counterparts in Europe in integrating immigrants into Irish society, because they went about it in the worst way possible in the first place. Instead of making any attempts to integrate immigrants successfully into society, the Irish Government spent billions to keep them holed up in Direct Provision.
God knows where they were 10 or 15 years ago. Certainly don't think it was here going by their knowledge and posts.
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