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FEC committee & final report - UPDATE post 442

Grizzly 45

Did any of you get this email today?

Thank you for your expression of interest for appointment to the Firearms Expert Committee. Minister Browne wishes to express his appreciation of your interest in sharing your firearms expertise with the Minister and to thank you for the time and energy you invested in applying for appointment to the Committee.

A large number of expressions of interest for appointment to the Firearms Expert Committee. After giving them carefully consideration unfortunately, the Minister regrets to inform you that you have not been selected for appointment to the Committee.

Within the plan, Action 34.3 outlines a commitment to identify all outstanding issues requiring reform in the management and processing of firearms licensing, register of firearms dealers and inspections. In advance of any new or amending measures being introduced the Minister will be seeking to consult all relevant stakeholders.The standard of applicants was very high and the Minister hopes you will not be dissuaded from engaging with the Department on firearms matters in the future. The Firearms Expert Committee will not be the only consultation for firearms stakeholders in the coming months. The Justice Plan 2022 contains a commitment to undertake an expansive review aimed at modernising the firearms legislation.

Having been impressed by the skills and experience of the expressions of interest received, the Minister is considering establishing new avenues for dialogue between firearms stakeholders and the Department, especially those who have unique and specialist insights into firearms matters. Therefore, I would be grateful if you could advise if we may retain your contact details to engage with you when these avenues are established.

We wish you every success in your future endeavours.

Sincerely,

Aoife Byrne

Firearms Expert Committee Secretariat.

fec@justice.ie

The owner of the biggest range in Ireland happened to alert me to this today as he was rejected as well.,and the fact is they must have chosen these people last week to issue the rejection notices this week once everyone accepted. Be interesting to know who was handpicked for this?

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Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243256#Comment_119243256

I only know Fabian through randomn mentions on the forum, but I have to wonder at his appointment given I've never heard his name in committee, representative or firearms group(s) circles before. What experience has he in not only dealing with such a surrounding, but one that involves "heavy hitters" from the DoJ?

No offence intended towards the man, but being a good sportsman in his chosen field is not credentials enough, for me, to be placed on this committee. I'd have ideally liked to have had someone with far more experience such as someone that previously sat on the SSAI, FSAI, FCP, etc. Given Walsh's appointment, holding such a position [on a previous committee] would not have been a precluding factor.

Of course if I'm wrong, which I may well be due to my not knowing about the man, then by all means I'm open to correction and willing to listen to his experience/credentials.

To be honest, whether its Fabian or someone else I believe the position to be a "death sentence" to the crdibility and character of whomever takes it. If things go badly you'll be blamed regardless of the "fight" you put up and given the make up of the committee I cannot forsee any outcome that leaves the majority of our sport in the status quo (its never going to get better so I didn't bother with that pipe dream).

Cass

John Guinane is known to me. I doubt he knows me, in fact I'd safely say he couldn't pick me out of a room if I were the only one there, but I've met him several times on the range and spoken to him, briefly, on a range of subjects.

He always came across as well versed, willing to listen, and decent, but unfortunately he is a repsentative of the DoJ so the best we can hope for is that he puts his decades of experience to good use and dispels some of the myths, held by those in power, surrounding shooting sports. Similarly to what our reps did in the Oireachtas committee some years back.

Cass

The remaining two, Garda and Chair are complete unknowns to me. Other than a Linkedin account for the Chair, and some beif Bio on her company page, I think little is know of her. As for the Superintendent, not a clue who he is but as rep for AGS as well as DoJ, we know his position.

jb88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119234193#Comment_119234193

One of the committee members was known about this time last year. Lets assess this. who do you think gave James Browne the idea, he knew absolutely nothing about firearms 2 years ago.

Paul Walsh is in the same electoral district as James Browne. This is all a rouse in order to drum up interest in firearms and create problems where they dont already exist.

Its a committee set up to bring about "Non Binding recommendations", We all know that legally held firearms are not the causes of crime in this state and that the owners are heavily restricted in the firearms they can own. If any minister took 5 min to look properly at this they would do better to just ignore it and move on, nothing to see here.

Paper never refuses ink and this is a popular one for lots of space not taken up by advertisements in newspapers, for anyone under 50 who still buys them on a daily or even weekly basis. If people believe what they read in the paper, written by hack journalists in this country then its the failure of our education system.

This report will be created there will be much fanfare and hype, bit of sabre waving and back stabbing, some lad will stand up and get put to the sword by all this, sorry Fabian, I know your a good lad. Others will walk away like they never had anything to do with it and continually mess with the system. Well that very messing with the system may actually be saving us from the real idiots.

Whats the main stumbling block the recommendations of this committee still need to overcome?

Oh yes its another committee?

Best of luck with this waste of time to everyone involved, with Ukraine and the wider debate on Firearms and our pending joining up with Northern Ireland, all of this is just going to fade away only to be altered with yet more legislation on even bigger changes to firearms in Ireland. (Its all just short term)

Legally held firearms are not the issue for everyone reading this, its the government who are the problem and with 200,000 people owning them, thats a very large voting block, so id stear well clear of p%ssing any of them off with the state your parties are in at the moment.

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243231#Comment_119243231

So I did say it in one of the deleted posts, both ordinary members of the Firearms Expert Committee will bring a wealth of experience to the matters to be discussed. I cannot understand Cass raking up old contentious and never proven issues about what the Sports Coalition that they did or did not do during its tenure. After all PW is only one member of the FEC so there is significant balance across the members.

For all the negativity about the SC I can assure you there was more positives out of the actions of the SC than they are credited for, retention (yes might surprise some viewers) of the licensing of .22 pistols and the substitution of CF pistols (one benefit I have had the good fortune to have taken advantage of)

Paul as far as I am aware is no longer a member of the SC as was a requirement in the FEC brief that the members would be independent.

So back to the core of the matter of FEC, it is what we have, there could have been far worse appointees, maybe some people think there could have been better, but it was an open competition and members were judged by their very own submissions, it is also to be noted that it was recognized by DOJ that a lot of individuals who did apply, made such applications with a wealth of valuable knowledge, this was recognized and individuals were asked to confirm if they could be consulted into the future, not a bad thing.

So rather than "throwing the baby out with the bath water" lets work with what we have, there is a long road to be travelled yet and I would anticipate that both ordinary members will be very approachable if done in a reasonable and proportionate manner.

The minutes of the meetings will be published, I would expect, so rather that speculate on the gloom and doom lets look for the positives, there is the potential for very major positives to come from the FEC and this is only a starting point on the road to reforming the whole firearms legislation.

Lets try and contribute positive statements and suggestions to the current FEC rather than mud slinging and negative commentary before they have even had one meeting.

Peppa Cig

Ok. Let’s start with proposing permission for “Practical Shooting” competitions 😁

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243232#Comment_119243232

I don’t think “independent” excludes anyone being attach to a firearms group (gun club org, nargc, or say funi) as long as they are there to give their view as individuals. But from the description above one individual is clear part if the “lobby”.

Grizzly 45

PW simply comes with too much baggage associated with his name and involvement in that organisation at a high level, and contrary to what others might accuse me of being a poor loser or sour grapes here...It's a simple statement of fact, even if he had an epiphany about all this, and has nothing but good intent...Leopards changing their spots and all that... IOW, he had better fight like the 3rd monkey on the gangplank to the Ark, when it started to rain, because if this comes out bad, he will have made a whole bundle of rods for his back to be beaten with based on his previous acts and reputation.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243591#Comment_119243591

Not going to happen in this.Unlees the minister brings it up.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243488#Comment_119243488

I think it was more or less a requirement that the chair was a solicitor or barrister. There role is to navigate the legalese, rather than provide expertise.

A Garda representative was a given in the EOI. As was a DoJ rep. The fact the DoJ rep is actually familiar with the legitimate usage of firearms (rather than a criminal justice rep) is about as much of a positive as you’ll get.

I’ve only heard on Fabian in relation to the Irish rifle he built. The first in a while. I can only assume he knows the ins and outs of ballistics fairly well and won’t we led astray.

as above, I didn’t know the 5th member. The EOI suggested a RFD would be appointed. Google links Walsh to an east coast hunting and shooting place. It’s a common name, but I presume that’s the same guy. Maybe that’s the hat he put on to apply.

Cass

smmember20 - So I did say it in one of the deleted posts

That were deleted for bad language directly at another user and back seat moderation.

smmember20 - I cannot understand Cass raking up old contentious and never proven issues about what the Sports Coalition that they did or did not do during its tenure

It is on their website. They are the ones who announed what they had done in April 2015.

As for why I bringing up "old contentious" issues. Simple, the secret proposals from the so called coalition were the catalyst for this ban. Its not old news when its still an ongoing issue and how else do you judge someone but by their previous actions?

smmember20 - retention (yes might surprise some viewers) of the licensing of .22 pistols

Retention? We already had 22lr pistols, and no ban was forth coming, other than the one they proposed (a ban on 22lr pistols with a barrel length of less than 5")

smmember20 - but it was an open competition and members were judged by their very own submissions,

Given your apparent knowledge, could you explain to me the interview process each candidate went through, the vetting on their credentials and how their knowledge base was judged to come to the conclusion they were suitable? If you don't know, no worries.

smmember20 - So rather than "throwing the baby out with the bath water" lets work with what we have

I've heard that same dismissive line when someone went for a position or was a self appointed representative for the shooting community who had previously be involved in secret and potentially damaging proposals as far back as 2010. It didn't hold water then and won't now.

smmember20 - Lets try and contribute positive statements and suggestions to the current FEC rather than mud slinging and negative commentary before they have even had one meeting.

A positive attitude is always best, but there is no mud slinging here. Mud slinging implies unjust criticism of a person via insults and accusations. As the proposals submitted by the so called coalition in 2015 were publicly shared BY THEM their intent and actions, as summarised above and recorded on this forum, are plain, obvious and leave no room for interpretation.

If Mr. Walsh has stepped down, and the so called coalition's website being "wiped" would suggest something has happened, then his previous ations, statements, proposals and intent will be a chain around his neck that not only the shooting community will not forgot but nor will the committee.

In other words how does he argue, if he will, that semi-autos pose no danger to the public when he called for their banning? How will he push back on any issue(s) that he previously not only supported but actively called for?

You say I'm dragging up old issues, they are very relevant today, and will be "dragged" up by the committee as the basis for this FEC.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243534#Comment_119243534

Sorry, can't agree with you that the SC did more good than bad.

For starters, they did in their feck save .22lr pistol shooting. Have you any proof of that assertion?

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243809#Comment_119243809

The make up of the committee was a given or known, and it was always going to have at least two people we did not know anything about (either the chair and the AGS rep, or the AGS rep and DoJ rep if the chair happened to be a sports shooter with a legal background which would have been a stretch).

The other two, ordinary members, well they were the "wild cards". Paul Walsh's appointment does not surprise me, but does shock me given his past and Fabian's took me utterly by surprise as I wouldn't have guessed the Man's name had I a hundred attempts.

Grizzly 45

The substitution of CF pistols?...By a "loophole" with no formal written protocol and procedure as to how to enact,operate or appeal for either parties? Yup ...Sounds legit alright!🙄

cavan shooter

We're fucked.

Cass

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Munsterlad102

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Paul Walsh and what's the story with him?

Cass

Post #29

Grizzly 45

Former chairman of the SC(ovi),and gun dealer.Goes back to 2015,when apprently this organisation decided to do some backroom deal with the minister of the time Fran Fitzgerald to put themselves in a position of power in the shooting community .

Cass mentioned a whole list of things a few posts back.

The biggest turd in the water pipe was however ,until this came out the SC was going places,as it was an umbrella for all the shooting and field sports groups in Ireland.But as usual some greedy and power grabbers had to mess it up for everyone else.

This is why an umbrella group will never work in Ireland for shooting sports.

homerhop

it’s all going to go down hill with that individual on board. Wouldn’t give the man a spud gun let alone a firearm.

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243843#Comment_119243843

Well proof yes of course: we still have them!

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246659#Comment_119246659

How did they/He achieve this? What ban were they fighting against that the rest of us never heard off? Via what route they do this (FCP, etc)?

Thanks.

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243980#Comment_119243980

smmember20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246670#Comment_119246670

Thanks for thanking me, as with all threats to our ownership of sporting firearms, the opportunity for change is coached in underhand dealing and not always easily defined, so no I cannot live up to your requirement to prove conclusively that we could have lost all out .22 pistols...............sorry

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119246693#Comment_119246693

You don't have to prove it conclusively. I'll even take bits. Like a link to the prosposed ban they alledgedly fought against (whomever wanted to ban them must have released a statement, like the DoJ did with SACF rifles). Who proposed the pistol ban they were fighting? How they stopped it, even if its only your relaying of the information rather than actual documentation.

At the moment, and going by your post I've just quoted, its akin to saying it never happened. In other words they won a non existent battle. In which case its disengenuous to claim to have won something that never happened.

Cass

smmember20 - So put simply many individuals have sought to substitute their CF pistols, (including myself), I have not heard of one single issue and on renewal there has been no issue with the renewal of the substituted firearm.

This is not germane to the thread topic, but forgive me for asking. Are you saying that people have substituted their CF pistol license and then renewed the substituted license, not the original license?

If so then you have a problem because the law may provide a loophole to allow you to sub to another pistol, but come renewal time if the pistol was not licensed to you prior to November 2008 then it stands void/revoked.

Of course if you mean you sub back to your original license, renew it, then sub back to the "new" gun, then that makes sense.

Grizzly 45

From the DoJ site

In total, 14 applications were received for the position of chair and 34 for the positions of ordinary member.

34?.. 34?applications for the position???We ought to be ashamed of ourselves in the shooting community. 😡

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119247476#Comment_119247476

Ashamed of what?

It's a stacked deck. Always was gonna be. Why would anyone put their name forward to be a scapegoat?

Grizzly 45

I could say a lot on that BSA,but "better to have tried and failed, than never tried at all!" kind of springs to mind.Or should I paraphrase this for Ireland?"Better to have never tried at all, and then B&M about the outcome of something you never tried to change or participate in at all!"

It's always the same here. An opportunity no matter how slim comes about, and 99.99% say its stacked, fake,this, that or the other, and don't participate. Then when change comes its "could have done XYZ" or "so and so is stupid so and so for doing that!" We are not going to change anything by not at least trying to get into the tent. Seeing that there are plenty of people here and in the community who would have filled this role admirably than what was chosen, and are not really known or keep away from the politics, and wouldn't give two damns worth if they are liked or disliked. I'm just surprised that for such a vocal community amongst ourselves, there wasn't 340 names to choose from. But, then again, maybe I've overestimated us, again in how much we really want to fight to keep our guns and sport.

Grizzly 45

So put simply many individuals have sought to substitute their CF pistols, (including myself), I have not heard of one single issue and on renewal, there has been no issue with the renewal of the substituted firearm.

I know of one case, a lad living up in the NW is having awful problems doing a sub for as 9mm to a 40SW. Haven't seen him since Before Covid[BC} on the range to see how he got on... But TBH this is not one I'd stick my head around the corner for until it becomes a lot more common,if at all.

AGS can shut this down in an instant too, by simply making it "policy" not to facilitate such substitutions on CF handguns and reason it as being too messy in the license /PULSE bookkeeping. Which TBH it is, going by;

Are you saying that people have substituted their CF pistol license and then renewed the substituted license, not the original license?

Of course, if you mean you sub back to your original license, renew it, then sub back to the "new" gun, then that makes sense.

Yeahhhhh...That doesn't sound very safe, uncomplicated or easy ...To me anyway... If it has worked for some folks, more power to them, but I'd say if we start making a habit of it,it will be shut down by AGS,even if the Cheif in your dist entertains it.