The beginning of the fall of the Catholic Church in Ireland (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-beginning-of-the-fall-of-the-catholic-church-in-ireland-1.4871562
Its hard to believe the power they had over the state up to very recent years. NMH lands is still a debate, but I'm glad people can chose to follow religion (if they wish).
Church sins don't really have much relevance to atheists like me.
But of course, you know well, despite your enthusiasm for this little distraction tactic, that I'm not judging any individuals. I haven't named anyone, I haven't approached anyone, I haven't cast anyone out.
I'm judging the stereotypical a-la-carte catholic, not getting out of bed on Sunday mornings, having a big day out for the communion, practicing contraception, voting for equal marriage and abortion, and STILL ticking the catholic box on the Census, and happy to impose their religious beliefs traditions on others in schools - plain simple hypocrisy.
That all sounds perfectly great, except that the RCC were very quick to make judgments about everyone else. Gays, divorcees, single mothers, non catholics.
Or, rather more accurately - people within the RCC were quick, and still are quick, to make judgements about others who they imagine themselves to be morally superior to in some way, by focussing on the parts of Catholic theology which suits their purposes. So for example there are gay Catholics who make judgements about divorced Catholics, divorced Catholics who make judgements about unmarried mothers and their children, gay divorced unmarried Catholics with children who make judgements about non-Catholics… ad Infinitum, I’m sure you get the picture.
One of the best examples of it is the Twitter spat and the subsequent falling out between Steve Bannon and Cardinal Raymond Burke after a French writer wrote a book implying that the Hierarchy in the Vatican were doing quite a bit more than reading bedtime stories from the Bible to each other after lights out -
https://www.thetablet.co.uk/features/2/16323/bannon-and-burke-the-end-of-an-unholy-alliance
Sin is at the very core of the catholic belief system, and thus judgment comes with that.
It is, and it does, but the judgement doesn’t come from other people, as they don’t have that authority. Catholics are urged to restrain themselves from rash judgement of other people and to show compassion, understanding, love and support, basically restrain themselves from the urge to be a dick, in secular terms.
That’s why I said earlier it’s a pretty solid moral philosophy to live by, one that many people tend to overlook when it suits them in order to portray themselves as being in some way morally superior to other people - they do the whole tolerance and respect and love for other people gig too, with themselves at the core of their own beliefs which they expect other people to practice, while appearing to absolve themselves of the same obligation. It’s why I struggle to take seriously the whole idea of “get religion out of schools so we can preach to children about love and tolerance and respect for other people”…
Of course I absolutely get the point of it - they’re advocating from their own perspective, which is fine if they wish for their perspective to be taught to their own children. It’s not fine if they wish to inflict their philosophy on children who aren’t theirs whose parents or guardians do not wish for their children to be indoctrinated into that philosophy. In the most basic terms - I support religious freedom, it’s guaranteed by our Constitution in any case, both freedom of religion, and freedom from religion.
The problem is that successive Governments have failed miserably in addressing the freedom from religion part of that provision, particularly in terms of providing for education in accordance with the rights of the family and the common good of Irish society. It’s just sneery on the part of the Department of Education to suggest that because there are adequate places in existing schools, this fulfils the States obligation to those families. It clearly doesn’t, IMO.
The requirement to attend mass is their own rule, they created it. Posters are not saying it is a sin not to attend mass. They are merely pointing out that, by the church's own rules, they are not fully catholic and thus the claim about how much of Ireland is catholic cannot be taken at face value.
That’s not ‘merely’ what was being said at all though. The exact post, and what was said, is this -
Eh no, it's not my rule or my standard. It is the church rule.
From: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/obligation-to-attend-mass-on-sundays-1101
"The obligation to attend Sunday Mass exists. It is a commandment of the Church which binds under the penalty of grave sin. "
These people are committing grave sins by the standard of their chosen church, yet they think they can tell others how to educate their children?
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119159275#Comment_119159275
That judgement of anyone goes quite a bit further than just “merely pointing out that by the church's own rules, they are not fully catholic”. That’s why I had such an issue with it, and I’d have an issue with anyone who went on like that thinking they could sit in judgement of other people and pronounce judgement upon them as if they themselves are morally superior to others. Whether or not someone is or isn’t religious doesn’t excuse them from the obligation to examine themselves first, and restrain themselves from passing judgement upon other people. There’s other times then and I simply wouldn’t be bothered, as their opinions just aren’t worth being taken seriously, and to respond to their provocation offers their opinion a legitimacy and recognition it doesn’t deserve. It’s clearly just sneering, which is motivated by attention-seeking.
Why? I never claimed that. What I said was that you can't be a catholic is you don't attend mass. I was always when growing up it was a requirement, but I never actually checked. It could have been another lie.
But then if attending mass isn't required, what is? What does being a catholic actually mean? And that is the point of this. 78% say they are, but what does that mean. AS you point out, since a person cannot leave the church, are people catholic for life regardless of their belief? Technically I am a catholic but I no longer believe in the RCC or its teachings. And there are clearly very many other people in Ireland in the same boat given the lack of attendance at mass, the equal marriage vote, the abortion ref, the divorce ref.
AS for you next post about e referendum. Why should the state pay for such a poll on the basis that without it the RCC continues to get preferential treatment in our education system. The church should make a case for it to continue. Carry out surveys, opinion polls.
The default should be it shouldn't be anywhere near education.
I could argue that if you were ever a Catholic but now claim to be an atheist you can't be, because you've have no means of leaving the RC.
So self declaring then as atheist is also invalid. In fact you could lie about everything on the census none of it is validated.
What you need is referendum not a census.
Maybe you'd quote the rule where is says your not a Catholic if you commit sin. Indeed how can you become "not a Catholic" after being one.
Before pointing out what you see as hypocrisy in others Andrew, have you examined yourself first?
(And I don’t mean in the physical sense 😏)
TLDR: It’s not just a concept limited to Catholic theology or religion which discourages rash judgement of others, it’s a pretty solid moral philosophy to live by regardless of whether one is religious or not.
It’s just one reason I don’t pass judgment upon people who enrol their children in religious ethos schools in spite of not being religious themselves, and then complain that their children are being indoctrinated in accordance with the ethos of the school, or religious parents enrol their children in non-denominational schools and then complain that their children are being indoctrinated in accordance with the ethos of the school which is not in accordance with their religious beliefs.
The longer explanation, should you choose to read it, is here -
EDIT: This is what is meant by ‘rash judgement’ -
As I said before, look to England to see where such indifference inevitably leads. Ireland is Catholic in name alone just as England is Church of England in name alone. Welcome to the future.
The judgement that not attending mass is a mortal sin is the judgement of the church, not my judgement.
My judgement is that not being arsed to go to mass on Sunday morning while ticking the catholic box on the Census and expecting schools to be structured around the religion that you don't practice is a little bit hypocritical.
I didn't lose you - you lost yourself....!
You’ve lost me now PC tbh, but sure, look, have a good rest of your Sunday 👌
Reems of rubbish that have nothing to do with the point to which you are respoding doesn't achieve this. It just makes it look like you're chainging the point and replying to that instead hoping that no on will notce and bring you back on topic.
You sould be now know, that doesn't work on me (or a few others in this thread - not your fitst time, is it?)!
Because I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt that they’re arguing in good faith, albeit from a place of ignorance, rather than leaping to the assumption that they are guilty of being a wind-up merchant who knows exactly what they’re doing.
It’s been an ongoing discussion, I already quoted Andrew’s post. Continuing to quote the same post wouldn’t have changed the material contained within the post, nor would it have changed the meaning of the post. I have a high degree of tolerance for people who are engaging in good faith, I have no tolerance whatsoever for wind-up merchants who are attempt to be vindictive and misleading. I’ll generally just ignore that sort of person rather than entertain them and legitimise their efforts.
Then why are you regurgituating reams and reams of unnessecary rubbish instead of just quoting the post where Andrew said this?
The judgement that anyone is guilty of having committed a mortal sin, IS coming from Andrew.
To put it in a context you may be more familiar with - criminal offences are prescribed in Irish Criminal Law. However, whether or not anyone is guilty of having committed a criminal offence is not a judgement that any ordinary person has the authority to determine. Same principle applies in Canon Law.
No, you're point ex that the judgement came from Andrew.
The fact that non-observation of their Sunday Obligations is a mortal sin is not in dispute. It’s your assessment of anyone whom you judge as having committed a mortal sin, is in dispute. You simply don’t have that authority.
I’m not sure what your second point means, it’s all a bit vague, but if your point is that you object to people inflicting their own standards upon other people who do not share in their beliefs, then we’re in agreement. I wouldn’t encourage or support that kind of behaviour either.
They're not my standards. I don't make the Church rules about Mass attendance. They ARE the catholic church standards, and non-attendance IS a grievous sin, except in some unusual cases, which don't include 'couldn't be arsed to get out of the scratcher'.
You can keep saying it until the cows come home. That doesn't change the facts. They're not my standards.
I don't give the slightest toss as to whether they go to mass on Sunday morning or not.
I DO give a toss when you try to impose indoctrination of other people's children, based on the supposed Catholicism of these people.
TL;DR.
I read the link you provided which is not the same as the link Andrew provided, but I don’t mind as I got the point you were trying to make - the obligation on Catholics to observe Sunday Obligations exists. I’ve never denied that Sunday Obligations exist. My point was only ever that what is also a fact in Catholic theology is that nobody is in a position to pass judgment upon those Catholics who do not observe Sunday Obligations.
I don’t need to take anything up with the author. You linked to the article as evidence to support your position, so I’ll take it up with you. I do agree strongly with the point that any endeavor that seeks to make Sunday a genuine day of joy and rest from work should be encouraged. The rest of it just explains the why, when and where -
The obligation of hearing Mass on Sundays, being a precept of the Church, could be altered or changed by the competent hierarchy of the Church; but the Church has not done so. On the contrary she has been over-generous in offering facilities for its fulfillment, and by simplifying the rites and offering a greater abundance of biblical and liturgical texts, she has exhorted that the eucharist be celebrated with the maximum power of pastoral efficacy. All the existing problems were studied by the bishops in the Second Vatican Council. Nevertheless in n. 106 of the constitution "Sacrosanctum Concilium" Sunday has been underlined as a day in which the faithful gather "so that by hearing the Word of God, and taking part in the eucharist, they may call to mind the passion, resurrection and glorification of the Lord Jesus, and may thank God." And they add: "Hence the Lord's Day, is the original feast day and it should be proposed to the faithful and taught to them in such a way that it may become in fact a day of joy and freedom from work."
The instruction "Eucharisticum Mysterium" of May 25, 1967, having put forward the theological meaning and apostolic origin of Sunday, goes on to say: "In order that the faithful may willingly fulfill the precept to sanctify this day and should understand why the Church should call them together to celebrate the eucharist every Sunday, from the very outset of their Christian formation Sunday should be presented to them as the primordial feast day, on which, assembled together, they are to hear the Word of God and take part in the Paschal Mystery. Moreover, any endeavor that seeks to make Sunday a genuine day of joy and rest from work should be encouraged." (AAS, 59 (1967), pp. 539-573, no. 25).
Later, this document insists that the celebration of Sunday Mass, whether it be with the Bishop, in the Parish Church, in other churches or approved places, nourishes and gives expression to the sense of community in the faithful.
What it’s saying basically is that this kind of thing shouldn’t be necessary -
https://www.thejournal.ie/culture-minister-josepha-madigan-mass-4090879-Jun2018/?amp=1
Quite Trumpian is the way in which you imagine you’re in a position to pass judgment on people other than yourself for what you see as their failure to meet your standards - they must be “a la carte” Catholics who have no real interest in church rules or church requirements, they just like having a big day out for the communion and chatting to the neighbours on Christmas morning, because they’re not behaving in accordance with your standards. That’s your opinion. It’s not a fact, and repeating it as many times as you like won’t move it from being an opinion to a fact.
All you appear to be trying to do is use any opportunity to condemn anyone who you imagine is not behaving in accordance with your standards. I’m not interested in answering to you on their behalf. I don’t have to. There’s no denial on my part that mass attendances are falling, and have been for decades, and undoubtedly will do in decades to come as Irish society becomes more and more multicultural and the percentages of other religions and none continues to rise. Naturally that will mean that the percentage of people who identify themselves as Catholic in the census becomes smaller.
It will also mean less observance of Sunday Obligations among Catholics. It will also inevitably mean that there are less Catholics in Catholic ethos schools, something that’s also been happening for decades, and like I said earlier in the thread - if I’d a euro for every parent who says they’re not religious themselves, but they want their children to make their Communion and Confirmation, I’d be minted!
The fact is that you appear to want me to care about something I just don’t. I do care that you imagine yourself in a position to pass judgment upon other people, because that’s just a nasty attitude. I expect it of a child, I don’t expect it of an adult who I assume should know better, especially when they preach about the ills in Irish society they attribute to religion.
You're young to have to include a tldr version alongside your posts, but based on the first paragraph, you ignored the link. If you disagree with it, fine - but take it up with the author.
Don't have time to read the rest.
Maybe they could build non faith schools
You've not offered any alternative solutions to the census.
Demand for all schools is overwhelming because of a massive population increase. Though obviously more acute for non faith schools.
Glad to see it, though it's voluntary and you've got gobshites like Owen Keegan on the DCC blocking doing this. Now all that's needed is to not make it voluntary as the RCC owes an enormous amount of money to Ireland. Still, it's a little progress and reassuring to see that despite census nonsense, the RCC in Ireland is failing. It has a way to go.
Cha-ching!
At least this land is finally going to be used for something useful. But the sums of money involved are staggering, as is the fact that this organisation continues to evade its obligations towards the victims of its crimes.
What's going to happen to all of this cash? Will it be used for the benefit of the Irish people, who let's not forget funded all of these properties in the first place? Or will it just be siphoned off to the Vatican?
The census accurately records the number of people who tick a box. That's all.
The only conclusion we can really draw about that 78% of people is that they were baptised in a catholic church. We have literally no idea what they believe today.
What's utter BS is the interpretations and justifications that box-ticking is abused in order to perpetrate.
The census does NOT ask anything about how parents wish to have their children educated. Using the census for that purpose is meaningless and an abuse.
We know that demand for Educate Together schools is overwhelming all over the country. Parents are very often forced to send their child to a religious ethos school because there is no alternative.
...
I was reading about the lady who finally got her daughters remains exhumed as she had been buried with her father who killed her. Similar happened with that Hawe family in Cavan, where the muderer was buried with the wife and kids, then exhumed later on, once her family processed what had happened.
My heart goes out to all those families.
The point I'm getting to, is who proposes the idea of joint buriels to the grieving family ? Is it the local priest ? These all seem to be catholic funerals and cemetaries. The families are numb, and fair to say can't think straight. I often wonder who pushes this onto the families. If its the priest, I imagine the families, neighbors, undertaker, etc wouldnt object.
This really is quite Trumpian in the levels of denial demonstrated in the post.
Once again, for those down the back who didn't hear, the judgement about the nature of sin in not attending mass is NOT my judgement. I'm quoting the judgement of eminent Catholic Church figures. It is THEIR rule, not mine. If you want to try to weasel out of the reality of the dismal church attendance figures by claiming that the majority 'didn't know' about their obligation or have mental illness, well that's plumbing whole new depths in your position. Have a bit of a think about it, and see if you're ready to face the facts - that the vast majority who call themselves catholic have no real interest in church rules or church requirements. They just like having a big day out for the communion and chatting to the neighbours on Christmas morning.
@drivingmissdaisy Miss Daisy, are you totally blind to the actual evidence of the increasing secularisation happening in Ireland, with the majority of weddings now being civil and not church weddings, with the tiny levels of mass attendance, with the majority of the population voting to ignore church teachings on abortion and equal marriage?
I can only imagine what kind of circles you've been hanging around to delude yourself about the reality of modern Ireland.
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