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GEM in ROI or the UK

Orange_Anatomy

Hi All!

I'm completely new here so I hope this is the right place to post...

I've finished my primary degree this year in Ireland (where I'm from) and applied for graduate medicine through CAO and UCAS.

I've been lucky enough to be offered a place in the UK which I'm over the moon about, but the offers for Ireland come out in August.

I think I'll want to practice in the UK at some point as I like how the NHS and the hospitals are structured. I've got a big interest in emergency from my nursing degree (but am open to all specialities at the moment, of course) & there's more trauma centres across the UK than Ireland. My worry is that if I do decide to come back to Ireland or anywhere else in the EU, it seems to have been made excessively difficult since Brexit for UK trained doctors to practice in an EU country, including Ireland. It seems to be easier to go from Ireland to the UK, especially with the UKMLAs coming into place.

I know Australia is always an option from Ireland or the UK, but that's awfully far. Would one training area make it easier for potential emigration to Canada for example though (I speak French so it would probably be the Québec region, idk if that would make a difference, just throwing it out there in case it does)

Overall the UK is cheaper than Ireland though and I don't see myself getting into Dublin where I'm from so accommodation will also come into play.

Internship is only one year in Ireland too, but after that they really throw you around anywhere and everywhere in the country until consultancy where posts are limited and connections are apparently very important. No one in my family is in the medical field (there's a dentist in Africa, I believe, that's it). It seems as though you have more choices in terms of specialities in the two Foundation Years in the UK also.

Sorry for this whirlwind of a question. Essentially I'm in a conundrum. I'm over the moon to have gotten into medicine and I wasn't thinking about all these logistics earlier,but as Autumn approaches, I guess I have to start thinking about these things.

Is or was anyone ever in the same boat? Does anyone has any advice or thoughts on this? Any Irish students in the UK? How do you find it? Are you happy with your decision? Any contribution would be greatly appreciated , thanks 😊.

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ma003

I can't speak for you coming back to Ireland in the future however I've heard the NHS is a less stressful place to work than the hse (just from family members who have worked as doctors and nurses there).

I also have a friend studying grad med in the UK and shes going to owe way less money than me with the BOI loan. Her repayments will be far less too and she has 30 years to pay it off vs 10. On that note the BOI loan is discontinued from this July so is no longer an option for people starting this September in grad med so if you were relying on that definitely factor that in.

I really like doing grad med in UL however I regret not applying to the UK (costs less, cost of living is less). You spend so much time in class and studying that the location doesn't matter too much. I thought I'd be going home all the time but once you meet fellow med students its great fun hanging out with them and you tend to go home less anyway. The only real advantage is if you have free rent living at home. I am a great advocate for UL cos even with covid I have had the best time but the costs are a real downer :(

Orange_Anatomy

Hiya!

Thanks so much for responding.

Yeah, I really like how the NHS is structured with plenty of specialist hospitals rather than one or two and they seem to tread their NCHDs better from what I've heard too.

Yes, money is the other big consideration sadly.

How is your friend liking the UK for med school? I've heard they're excellent, but quite harsh with a "sink or swim" attitude whereas friends in the same course in Ireland feel as though they get a lot of support, especially in the first two years. Don't get me wrong, it's medicine, the last thing I'm expecting is an easy course, but I want to make sure that after all the effort to get in, if I'm struggling at the beginning that I've got the support to succeed and find the best method for that rather than to be ignored or discouraged.

Yes! UL looks amazing & I love that it's PBL. I was planning on heading home once every 2 weeks at the beginning and then move it out to once a month if all goes well. Idk if that's realistic, but sure I'll find out soon I guess 😊.

Out of curiosity, I don't drive yet, so for placements away from campus, is accommodation provided like in UCD & RCSI? Thanks ^^

ma003

Definitely do-able to go home every second weekend, could prob go home every weekend if you wanted, lots of people still work so do that! I more meant if theres stuff going on where you're living it can be fun to stay!

She really likes it- unfortunately the program she's doing isn't exclusively GEMS so she was put into year 2 of a 5 year program so she has to catch up on year 1 in her own time but shes managing to get by and work weekends too! I don't think anyone would ignore or discourage you and there are def supports in every medical school but it is sometimes a case of working through stuff yourself or talking to fellow students. The tutors here are really nice and I know people in RCSI and UCD and they seem to get on okay but I feel like everyone sort of sinks or swims at the start - though its more of a quick sink and then you get used to everything. To be honest I feel like it is quite do-able and its definitely not the same as medical school in the US where I think a lot of people get their idea of medicine from. Theres prob more work to do than say my undergrad but if you have an interest its all good!

The placements in UL are long enough. So in 3rd year its 2 18 weeks placements and in 4th year 5 6 week placements so you are in places for a while so its not horrible to find accommodation. The college provide an unofficial list of where people have rented but its upto you to sort it but people are rotating around so theres a lot of swapping going on. If you can afford it, driving would make your life easier but you can probably make it work without it. I'm in a rush to learn now and probably won't have it done till halfway through my first placement- this is solely because I'm sick of taking buses all the time now haha

3d4life

WRT ma003's post "I also have a friend studying grad med in the UK and shes going to owe way less money than me with the BOI loan."

BoI pulled the plug on this recently

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/boi-decision-to-discontinue-graduate-medical-student-loan-catastrophic-1.4859618

Orange_Anatomy

That's a bit of a relief to hear! Was beginning to think that the UK was like the States.

Ngl, I'm feeling a bit of a pull to Ireland over the UK because of Brexit & the new UKMLAs, but again the money will be tight because of the cancelled GEM loans. I guess if I'll pretty much be studying most of the time though, hopefully I should be okay. How are opportunities to work abroad once you finish in UL?

Still less weeks of placement than nursing (thank goodness?) 😂

Can I ask what you did as your undergrad? Also would one be able to visit the school of medicine down in UL? Thinking of taking a day trip...

Ambitiousmeddd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058243977/gem-in-roi-or-the-uk

Hi,im just wondering what you got in the gamsat to secure a place in the UK?

avalon68

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058243977/gem-in-roi-or-the-uk

Im in the UK as it was significantly cheaper, plus I was eligible for the student maintenance loan. Wasn't eligible for the BOI loan as didnt have rich parents. Not worried about moving back - they will sort out the degree transferability. Too many Irish students here to think otherwise.

Orange_Anatomy

Hi,

Thanks for that. You make a good point about all of the Irish students.

Think I just needed a while to go over logistics in my head, now I feel a lot better about moving over and definately in terms of finance, it seems a lot more feesible for the long run.

How have you found it so far? Anything you wish you'd known before starting?

Orange_Anatomy

Oh goodness, I'm so sorry, I only saw your messege now. I got a total GAMSAT score of 59 (65, 70, 50), so definately far from amazing, but it was enough. The main thing for the UK is to get 50+ in every section, after that it goes by number of applicants for a cut-off & then interviews. I got 2/4 interviews with that score. 1-2 more points would have made it 3, according to people on The Student Room...

avalon68

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147109#Comment_119147109

Yeah, its been fine so far. Though I guess placements have been a bit interrupted with covid. Going to depend where in the UK you are too I guess. Only advice Id give is to really make sure to use any available slots for clinical skills practice. OSCEs make up a huge percentage of your overall year results in some places, so practice practice practice. Financially Im much better off here (again location will affect this). The loan repayments are tiny, and if for any reason you cant work, or are off traveling, then the payments pause. Ireland really needs to sort its **** out with funding. Theres no point having GEM at all if most people just cant afford it. There needs to be a government student loan system similar to the UK. Even outside of med they should have it - give everyone a fair chance to go to university without having to worry about how to pay rent/buy food.

Orange_Anatomy

Hey,

Thanks for the insight. Practicals will be my lifeline for grades relative to theory because of nursing (at least for the first 2 years or so, I hope 😅), so definately will make sure I don't slack (bribe myself with chocolate at the end of a good day, lol) .

Completely agree. It's an awful situation for so many here. I had a friend balancing 2 jobs while in GEM to finance herself beside loans, can only imagine how it'll be now and even for other degrees, like you say, without the support it feels close to impossible.

Have you been out in placement yet? How do NHS hospitals compare to HSE ones? Just curious how different/similar they are.

avalon68

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119176793#Comment_119176793

I wasnt even able to get a loan in Ireland. Its a joke. I had a high enough score to study at any Irish university but because I dont have rich parents I couldnt do it. Tbh, has worked out better for me anyway. I got the student loan here. Repayments are tiny here. Cost of living is much lower than Ireland right now too. I'm not sure how the hospitals compare tbh - didnt have much experience with Irish hospitals thankfully! Def short staffed though, with waiting lists etc - prob similar in Ireland tbh. GP surgeries are very similar, just on a larger scale to the ones I was used to back home.

3d4life

I'm curious to know if any have considered the GEM course being offered in N.I ?

https://www.ulster.ac.uk/faculties/life-and-health-sciences/medicine/course

If so, what did you consider to be the Pros and Cons of same ?

It would seem to be financially undemanding ( GBP 4.5k pa ) ... might it be the case that you get what you pay for ?

Orange_Anatomy

I'm actually starting up on Ulster GEM come September & this was something I looked into loads while applying because like any overthinker applying to medicine, it seemed to good to be true too.

Because it's a new course and there's a serious need for doctors all over N.I., the course received financial support from the government and the NHS allowing them to make the fees what they are. It also helps to attract students to a new & unfamiliar course.

The course at present is almost identical to that of St. George's London (it's the partner school). The General Medical Council is also overseeing how well the course is doing according to their rigorous standards. By the time the class of 2025 graduate, the GMC will decided to recognize it as a medical school or not. In the unlikely event that it isn't recognized, the students will receive their medical degree from St. George's University of London and can continue in their medical development as doctors. This applies for all other years below studying there at this time too.

Pros & Cons are rather personal, but I'll pop in some of mine cause some may be similar.

Pros:

- Tuition Fees

- Cost of living in is lower in NI than ROI in general

- Problem-Based Learning (4.5 years of didactic was enough for me. Also from a clinical perspective, PBL seems more practical, not dissing didactic learning which is also excellent, I just feel like I need a lot of stimulus to learn and case studies can provide that better for me rather than loads of lectures back-to-back)

- UKMLA Prep incorporated into the course

- GMC recognition

- GEM-only course (love my undergrad friends, but this just means the course is specifically & only tailored for graduate students so it may be a little more suitable for our learning styles and there is also a lovely variety of backgrounds joining)

- NHS training (I've been in the HSE for 5 years now, so I'm curious about the NHS)

-Can move around UK once qualified

-Student support appears to be really good. I've not even started the course yet and have been contacted by them. Plus we have specific student support staff for the school of medicine.

-Small class sizes

-Derry is a really nice city

-UCAS is quick! You don't have to wait until mid-August to see if you have an offer or not (looking at you CAO 👀). Less anxiety and this has also allowed the incoming cohort to get to know each other through FB/offer holder days.

Pro/Con:

Idk where to put this, but anatomy learning is done with 3D computer technology and live imaging not dissections. For some, this may feel like a disadvantage, others may love it. Most med students/doctors whom I've spoken to say that they didn't find dissections particularly useful as the cadaver doesn't really correspond to a living body out on clinical, so I wouldn't worry too much about this. UL uses the same technology.

Cons:

- You can be placed anywhere in NI on placement & will need to most likely arrange transport &/or accommodation.

- You cannot do your internship in ROI as of yet (another "gift" from Brexit), that may or may not be sorted by the end of the course, so keep that in mind.

-Longer Semesters. So far we get an average of one month off in summer because of how intense the course it and that is if you don't have to sit repeats.

-Some people find PBL a disadvantage for the following reason:

1. Their can be clashes among different people in the small groups,
2. Some people find that they are teaching medicine to themselves,
3. You might be learning the wrong thing or something in too much/too little detail alone which can waste a lot of time (with all of this being said, most people get over this hurdle after the first few weeks, it really does just take some getting used to)

-Foreign logistics could cause a bit of a head spin in the beginning (currency exchange, phone numbers, taxation, medical appointments...)

Overall, Ulster seems like a solid choice and I'm really excited to head up and start medicine there. The GMC visited the school last academic year and were apparently really impressed with the standard there so far too.

Hope this is helpful. Feel free to ask any further questions :)

3d4life

Good for you OA !

Being a newish course you (all - in the year ) might be in a strongish position to suggest changes as to how the course could be improved.

Would be great if you updated us here as course progresses

Hope it works out for you

Paramayo

Hey there🤗 I'm a bit late to this thread so hopefully you see this. Currently finishing a Paramedic degree, the dream is to do medicine but like most others I wasn't blessed with the financial backing to do it out of my own pocket. I was wondering if you might be able shed some light on the finance situation for Magee GEM. From what I can see online it seems ROI students aren't eligible for loans to cover fees. Is that correct? If so how are you planning on funding you studies? Sorry if that's a bit of a personal question 😅

Hope the course has started off well for you 😁

Orange_Anatomy

Hello!

Sorry for the very delayed response. First year was indeed a baptism of fire, but I am happy to announce that somehow, I made it through and am now in second year!!

I am very lucky in that for my first degree, I was living at home and my family were very good in supporting me during this. Almost everything from my nursing internship and my part-time job, I saved, setting myself a very tight monthly budget for transport & emergencies (even food and coffee, I was bringing from home) so this is hopefully should allow me to fund at least the first 3 years of my studies (we'll see how I get on, might have to consider a loan for final year). I am still living on a tight budget in all fairness, but not miserable, I can still enjoy myself a bit (within reason). This wouldn't have been possible if I'd stayed in ROI and moved away from Dublin as the fees are almost three times more per year and that's not even including the ridiculously expensive accomodation down south.

There is a Bank of Ireland loan available for GEM in UU (Link:

https://www.ulster.ac.uk/faculties/life-and-health-sciences/medicine/study/course/scholarships/bank-of-ireland-borrowing ) which a good few students have benefitted from. Unfortunately, I don't know much about it, but would be more than happy to ask classmates and get back to you if you have any questions.

I know two other girls who managed to get a scholarship from a third party company. Again, not too sure about that, but I can ask if it would help.

A good few students have also found work as HCAs in the local hospital (Altnagelvin) which pays nicely and helps with the bills.

Hope this helps a bit. Feel free to ask any additional questions (promise I'll try to get back a bit quicker than last time, lol 😅).

All the best with your application. It's a tough course, but worth it. I've really enjoyed my first year 😊