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Child Item

Sexual discrimination - male, 58 years

noonehome

Thoughts on the following situation appreciated.

I'm working for a multinational remotely, which has several hundred staff in Ireland doing similar. Last year I experienced an extreme case of abuse from a customer, on phone and two subsequent follow up emails not prompted by me.

The female customer ticked all the boxes, swearing, personal abuse, racist abuse (not at me), libel, misandry and bullying.

I reported this to my immediate manager, who took it to another specialist team. It was only due to me noticing that they linked their response to the customer on my email ticket that I got to see their response. They blamed my support and appeased the customer.

I took this to my immediate manager again (I only learned later that they were involved in the response) and stated that this was not correct and nothing was wrong with my support and the response was little more than victim-blaming.

I ended up having meetings with my manager, their manager, the head of the team who handles these incidents, and HR. They all backed up the initial response. To cut a long story short, I launched a grievance about it, which was found not in my favour. I ended up speaking to the head of the department who respond to abusive customers, their response and behaviour made me seek a review of the grievance, which this time was found in my favour. My support was unequivocally found to have not had anything to do with the incident, nor should the response have said that I was and that I would receive training (which never happened).

All good, I hear you say. Nothing much though happened. Not even one apology from managers concerned. On reviewing the whole thing now, I realised that there was something more to it. All the managers concerned were women, including the person who oversaw the first grievance, as was the customer. I was the recipient of misandry, the male equivalent of misogyny. If I was a woman, the managers would have supported me if the customer was a man and a misogynist. Likewise, in the same situation male managers, would have supported the woman and not blamed her.

So as a male of almost 60 I was treated differently because of my sex. I'm pro-feminist, very left of centre in my world-view and normally like women managers and women in general. I find myself in a very odd situation, wondering about taking this further.

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Comments

Mrs OBumble

What do you want to achieve by taking it further? ie do you have a passion for justice about the issue?

You're 58. How long til you can retire? Is it worth keeping your head down, or even looking to transfer to a different team?

There's a real risk that you might win a battle but lose the war here. And at your age, getting another job won't be easy.

road_high

Customers can be right cnuts and the company likely took the easier option of just placating the customer. They’ve nothing to gain by launching a battle on your behalf- in their eyes not a battle worth pursuing. Doesn’t matter who’s right or wrong unfortunately. If I was in your shoes I just chalk it down- while no one deserves abuse from a customer it happens unfortunately. I wouldn’t have engaged her at all once the abuse started.

All sounds to me like a hill that isn’t worth dying on.

[Deleted User]

I'd say you're pretty easily identifiable if any of the parties involved are on boards. Just something to think about.

Jequ0n

You have no evidence that you were discriminated against. With all due respect, you are opening a can of worms here and you will regret it.

AyeGer

Sounds like you are right but ultimately expendable to the company.

Misandry isn’t really a concern in society but misogyny certainly is, we never hear the end of it. The company would be much more nervous about the latter.

It doesn’t sound fair but it’s the reality men are facing these days.

Deeec

You are probably right but forget about it and move on. You won't achieve anything by taking it further.

You got an abusive customer which happens from time to time. There is not much the company can do about this either in fairness.

is_that_so

Yeah nowt you can do about customers suiting themselves especially in that how how did I do lark. In your example it sounds like a downright unhappy customer who was just primed to go off especially if there was a box to tick on racism. In that context they were never going to find against the customer. Once had a complaint in an online business of how much gall there was from the company in inviting customer feedback, after taking so much money off them!

OP I'd say blow off much steam as you can with people who'll listen to you and get it out of your system. The company have done their bit and by the looks of things are not interested in going any further. If it bothers you so much leave or look for another job but you'll unquestionably end up facing that other unproveable -ism of your age group, ageism. So the practical option is be a jobsworth, do the minimum and count down the days to the end of work,

[Deleted User]

My experience of having h interfaced with the public for decades in a public service role, customers often take out their frustrations on staff, and management almost invariably tends to take the customer’s side to the detriment of the victimised staff member. Btw I’m female, my bosses were mostly female. The few male staff were proportionately a little less likely to come under any wrath of the predominantly female who kind of treated males as a bit of a special species in my work setting.

noonehome

Thanks for all your comments, folks. Yes, I'm 58, but I'm not looking at retiring or stopping work anytime soon. My dad's 90, very fit and active for his age, and also doesn't take things lying down.

Change does not happen first without someone pushing back. It's normally a small % of people involved that bring about change to start with. While I'm not claiming to have an issue similar to the following or be of the same stature as those involved, the suffragette movement started with just 300 women and the 1916 rising only involved less than 0.1% of the Irish population.

I believe any form of discrimination should be opposed, rights won can be easily rolled back if they are not applied fairly. As I said I'm 58, financially independent with almost having paid off a mortgage, have other lines of income besides my "day" job and not bothered about advancement, though their management could surely do with people who stand up and think for themselves.

I took the original grievance to stop a similar incident from happening to someone younger, less sure of themselves, looking to advance and dependent on their job for rent, mortgage etc. No one should be used as a scapegoat for a customer (also with a long history of similar behaviour) whose behaviour is more than someone who got out of the wrong side of the bed.

Companies like the one I work for, portray themselves as fair and liberal but use it as a smokescreen to motivate their staff, but when it really counts they quickly show their true colours. Walking away is not my style and if the company wants to come after me then I'm fortunate to be able to defend myself financially.

Snugbugrug28

Need a thick skin if you're dealing with customers for sure.

cuttingtimber22

Sometimes life is just unfair. Stuff goes against you even when in the right. And business will primarily think about what is in the immediate best interests of the business despite all the ‘causes’ they may support.

From personal experience, if one does get bitter about stuff - it ends up hurting you more than anyone else. It may also impact those closest to you - the people who would ordinarily have your back.

All in - put it behind you. Lesson learned. Do your job as well as you can. Don’t show your bosses that they annoyed you (risk is a perception emerges that is you who cannot take instruction from a woman). And find a way to pass on those types of customers to someone else.

sydthebeat

What piece of evidence do you have that this is misandry?

Is there an email from one women at another which specifically denigrates you as a man?

If there's nothing specific, then your opinion of this as misandry will be easily swatted away by those higher up

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108001#Comment_119108001

I agree. Companies a lot of the time simply side with their customers more. It’s not right, but it happens.

the biggest crock of Sh1t we are always reminded of is “the customer is always right.”

dennyk

This probably isn't a discrimination issue, but rather one of those situations where your employer is unwilling to push back on a customer's unacceptable behaviour for fear of losing their business (or causing backlash by doing so that creates negative publicity; these days it's easy for disgruntled customers to spout utter nonsense on social media and get a lot of folks in an uproar about some company or other that they perceive has "mistreated" them, regardless of the truth of the situation). It's not fair to the employees like you, but it is unfortunately quite common for companies to just try to placate angry customers with some halfhearted vague apology (whether it's actually warranted or not) and hope the problem will just go away quietly. If it makes you feel better, it's likely got nothing to do with your age or gender, and it's also likely your immediate managers are well aware that you did nothing wrong, but they unfortunately have to play along to keep their boss's boss's bosses happy.

Working in customer-facing roles does unfortunately mean having to have a thick skin and avoid taking it personally when some customers inevitably act like assholes, and while in a perfect world your employer would always have your back in such situations and would happily tell abusive customers where to stick it, it just doesn't work that way in the real world where companies are unwilling to do anything that might jeopardise their QoQ profit growth. It'd really be best for your own sanity to chalk this up to a customer having a **** day and unreasonably taking it out on you, and just let it go. If you're not able to do that, you might want to consider whether a different role that doesn't involve direct customer contact (or at least something other than front-line support, who are usually the ones who have to bear the brunt of such abuse from angry customers) might be a better fit.

kathleen37

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119112305#Comment_119112305

All of this.

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058247220/sexual-discrimination-male-58-years

Depends what you want to happen

if you want to make a legal claim you do have a case if what you say happened did happen, don’t listen to people here who say you don’t.

my advice is if you want to make a claim than meet a solicitor, I know Some good ones in tipp if your based around that area or surrounds . Pm if interested

laoisgem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115133#Comment_119115133

Nothing in his post, apart from him surmising, makes it sexual discrimination. He would need hard facts to make a case.

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115152#Comment_119115152

A solicitor will ask for copies of all internal documentation regards the complaint and a copy of internal hr procedures - and than start the dance

the reality is if he was a woman and his managers men than no one would be questioning his surmising

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119108069#Comment_119108069

There rarely is evidence in the sense of someone leaving a memo saying “he’s a man what do you expect etc.” It can be inferred from the process and outcome. That said given the fact OP won his case and overturned his decision a wiser course might be to strongly suggest to senior management that there must be gender balance on all investigatory and disciplinary committees.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119110419#Comment_119110419

It's an expensive way to make a point even if it's valid. It's unlikely to to change a culture of customer appeasement and gender bias using staff as Cannon fodder.

Decide what your objective is and how you'll know if you've achieved it.

Personally I would see this as a toxic environment and would move laterally as far away as I could from such people.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119110419#Comment_119110419

But there is one very big difference between your previous stand and this one - no evidence just an opinion.

laoisgem

the reality is if he was a woman and his managers men than no one would be questioning his surmising

That's your opinion, also not a fact. Personally I'd be giving the same advice whether male or female.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115162#Comment_119115162

A solicitor can ask for whatever he wants, it does not mean it exists nor that he will get it. Companies like everyone else have a right to a legal defence and that it includes requiring the solicitor to go to court to get access to documents. And your reality is not facts.

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119117778#Comment_119117778

Your simply wrong , by your logic there would be no need for the WRC

Are you a solicitor? If not than don’t preach to one who is

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058247220/sexual-discrimination-male-58-years

There you are again, same ****, different thread 1 post

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115152#Comment_119115152

Nothing in his post exists.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119117821#Comment_119117821

Perhaps it's time you had an upgrade then.

Liberty_Bear

@OP

You might go about tackling it from a point of view of Dignity at Work. By way of pure information - Under the Health Safety and Welfare at Work Act, every place of work is required to have a Dignity at Work Policy and an Anti Bullying Policy. A complaint can be lodged with the Workplace Contact Unit within the Health and Safety Authority. Additionally there also has to be a risk assessment that looks at psycho-social hazards as they term it (their language) which discusses control measures to tackle such issues. In the grander scheme of things, if it is a large employer as you described, such places usually have an Equality and Diversity Officer whom specialise in such matter and may be able to offer some advocacy for you or some form of advice. For what its worth, one option (and again this is by way of information only) , one can make a Subject Access Request to see what data is held on them. From what you have written do you feel in this case that it might be better to let sleeping dogs lie? Solely for the reason that might it open up a proverbial can of worms that you may not wish to open and in return cause more hassle than its worth?

ShamanRing

Left-of-centre male finds that all his years supporting leftist/feminist causes brings about zero support when his own issues are raised.

A conservative is born.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119233006#Comment_119233006

Bit weird but fine.

My job deals with high proportion of female customers.

I get the talk to the manager phonecall sometimes and I get on grand with them. So from my perspective I see no issue. I generally think men have it easier with customers. Again, my own perspective. Maybe it's my laid back approach, ability to bs well...I dunno. I don't speak for all men's experiences.

In saying the above, I'm talking about customers/ clients. I've never worked in predominantly female team, so my opinion may be moot.

But from the ops post I'd say don't bother. Your manager should back you up unless you made a complete balls of it. Then chat in private.