The beginning of the fall of the Catholic Church in Ireland (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-beginning-of-the-fall-of-the-catholic-church-in-ireland-1.4871562
Its hard to believe the power they had over the state up to very recent years. NMH lands is still a debate, but I'm glad people can chose to follow religion (if they wish).
The point is, Shoog, I'm not the one looking for proof.....I believe that God exists. And neither am I trying to either convince or convert anyone else. But then my beliefs are challenged,,,, prove it!!. Why do I have to prove anything to anyone???? I'm happy in my belief. You were in NI, and saw what it was like living in a war zone... and that experience shaped you, as well it would. Well I lived in war zones too, for more than 24 years, and some of the most brutal wars on the planet ( are there any other kind? ) and that for sure shaped my thinking , and what ever kind of religious attitude I had before that ( would be described as "moderate" ) were quickly changed to "Hardline" by my own personal experiences. An apt phrase comes to mind Shoog, but it may be the best way I can describe it. " When you walk through the valley of death, and come out the other side, its because God was holding your hand". I walked that Valley Shoog.
I never said YOU were anything, I said - and you've been debating with me for ages now - the ACTS were.
And speaking of "scraping the bottom of the barrel", can you put a bit more effort into you r responces than callenging someone who never said God didn't exist to prove it...?? Now that really IS lazy.
You cannot prove a negative (ie god does not exist) and the producer of fantastic claims (ie supernatural claims such as yours) always have to prove those claims - never those who disagree. This is how discourse and logic have worked for thousands of years.
To make this understandable - I cannot prove that the Omnipresent Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. We all just assume that it doesn't. The only material difference to the christian god is that most people assume he does exist. The only material difference is the base assumption.
And where's your evidence empirical or otherwise, that God does not exist.??? Anyway no business engaging in a conversation with anyone who uses words that imply that I'm a lazy coward. That kind of language is what I call scraping the bottom of the barrel, and derogatory and personal as far as I'm concerned.
How ironic - or should I say, grossly hypocritical - because I was responding to a post you made where you were commenting on the beliefs of others which you said yourself you do not hold. Shouldn't be any concern of yours, right?
Well, it would be no concern of mine if they didn't use our state funded schools and hospitals, state broadcaster, and attempt to influence the very laws of the land all in order to force their dogma onto people who are not members of that church.
Yet the Sisters of Charity had to apply to the Vatican for permission to transfer ownership of St. Vincent's (to a private company controlled by their appointees... but that's anther story)
It seems the "nothing to do with us, we're just the holding company" and "when we don't want to be held to the norms of a state, we're a church. When we don't want to be held to the norms of a church, we're a state" thing is working out very well for them indeed.
So the Irish people, who already paid for these schools and hospitals to be built, have to now buy them again?
That's some scam, that.
You also claimed earlier that churches/orders provided health and education services to the State free or at reduced cost. You are going to have to provide evidence for this.
Yes a lot of teachers and nurses and even some doctors in decades past were members of religious orders. But the state paid them the same wage as any lay teacher, nurse or doctor. What that person then chose to do with their own wage - give all or most of it up to their order - was their problem.
People come out with nonsense that "without the church we would have had no healthcare or education" which isn't true since at least the late 19th century. There's a reason primary schools in Ireland are called NATIONAL schools.
Yeah, your background. I said so.
Again - I'm not questioning it or telling you it's wrong - I'm saying you don't think objectively or when you do, you go looking for confirmation rather than empirical unbiased evidence. You also ascribe the negative aspects of society to not having faith - again, without any empirical unbiased evidence.
I've explained my background to you Princess, but I'll add a bit to it. And yes, it was as you say chosen for me, but that fits right in with what Jesus commanded his disciples to do, Go and teach all nations what I have taught you. and indeed that's what happened. And here I am. And TBH, I was just an ordinary guy, Mass of a Sunday was often missed, as were other Church milestones. But then my work took me all over the world, and what i saw and experience in my travels proved to me beyond a reasonable doubt ( as they say) that God does exist. And the only reason I'm having this conversation here now on Boards, is because I was protected by Him, and not just once, but for the whole 24 years. In that time Princess, I saw too many injured and killed. Men women, and Children, I have attended more Muslim Funerals abroad than I ever attended Christian funerals here at home. Now can you understand where My belief in God comes from???
Again, I'm not questioning your faith, I'm just asking why you chose it, but based on the above its obvious that it was chosen for you and you accepted it. Which illustrates my previous point about faith being lazy.
It's also very easy to pin the blame for society's ills on whatever you want. KIds misbehaving? Lack of faith... Rise in crime? Lack of faith. WIthout any conjecture or research, you just assume that correalation means causation. How do you know these kids aren't from catholic famlies? Did you think to check? No.
Again - lazy, cowardly thinking.
In England most of the population casually describe themselves as Christian. Most of those have only be to church for weddings and funerals. They are are Christians in a purely cultural sense
Ireland is on exactly the same trajectory. Most will never declare themselves atheist, they simply do not care to think about it and take that final step of renunciation.
That is the future for Ireland and eventually people will demand an end to the wasteful and damaging school indoctrination.
On the notion that we need religion to make us good people, if that were so we would find a disproportionately large number of atheist criminals -which is the opposite of what we see.
That’s who it refers to, it’s still not anywhere near speaking on anyone else’s behalf. It’s not speaking for the majority of parents, it’s asking you for your opinion. It’s not attributing any position to parents that they don’t already hold. The question was about the parents who hold that position. The only legitimate criticism can be made is that there was no evidence presented for the premise of the question, which is a fair point, easily rectified -
The research found that 72 per cent of parents had sent their child to their school of their choice, while 24 per cent their child to the only school available in the area. A total of 4 per cent said they did not get their first preference for the school of their choice.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/many-parents-reluctant-to-change-patronage-of-school-survey-finds-1.4784523
The question was “And the majority of parents who are satisfied with the status quo?”.
This question literally includes the statement “the majority of parents who are satisfied with the status quo”.
This statement is speaking for the majority of parents, attributing a particular position to them, based on zero evidence.
There is no connection between the CSO question and satisfaction with current education arrangements. Your linkage is pure conjecture.
Obviously it’s conjecture, in the same way your pointing to mass attendance figures has no connection to satisfaction with current education arrangements, clearly!
The difference of course is that the CSO figures are used by all stakeholders involved in education, whereas mass attendance figures aren’t used by anyone other than the few people who don’t appear to have any interest in education.
I raised my family as I had been raised by mine Princess, as a Catholic, and now, my grandkids are being raised in the very same manner ( and travelling back in time, My Grandparents were in the same mold , and possibly even more strict, under the respective thumbs of De Valera and McQuaid) And as for the pedo's, chancers and criminal type wolves in clerical garb, none withstanding, we all turned out ok, TG. Now I see a world where there does not seem to be any controls, kids misbehaving , growing up without any boundary's,,, you know what I mean. Society sems to have lost its way. I've never said there were no other Faith's,,,I spent 24 and half years working and living abroad, predominantly Islamic Country's. Most of my Friends are Muslim ( of different sects ) and several time's a week I speak with them. Last night I spoke with a very good Afghan friend who a few years ago, gave me a grand tour of the Bamiyan , where the tourists do not get to see. But he had to leave with his family for Pakistan when the Taleban arrived. Thankfully, he has now returned, but to what? Everything he once had is now gone. He was a Lawyer in Islamic Jurisprudence, and held in high standing in the community. Now he represents everything that is a threat to the Taliban. But I digress,,,, So no, Princess, I'm not unaware of other Faiths and Cultures. But I have not changed my mind either about Christianity.
Of course we choose what to believe in - didn't God himself give us free will?!
Again - you might have been born into a religious community, but you were NOT born with a religious mindset. At some point, someone told you about it and you chose to believe it!!
The question didn’t include any statement of any such thing. The question referred to the vast majority of parents who are happy with the status quo. That’s not speaking for anyone. You’re not obligated to answer the question, but trying to suggest that anyone is speaking on anyone else’s behalf is nothing more than a pithy attempt at point scoring and stalling any reasonable discussion.
Thanks for your tone policing. I’ll give it all the attention it deserves.
Indoctrination is a fact. Catholic schools indoctrinate students through a whole range of tactics, many of which are outside religion class. You can’t opt out of iconography. You can’t opt out of prayers at each lesson.
There seems like a disconnect between your paragraphs. You first say 'the majority of what parents want for their own children has no bearing..." and uses words like 'rights of parents.' Are those legally defined in the Consitution? And, if the State in fact ignores the (rights?demands?requirements) of parents that seems like a failure of the system. Which, as you've pointed out before, can only be addressed by amending the Constitution.
They are legally defined in the Constitution, and it absolutely IS a failure of the system, but upholding their rights doesn’t require a Constitutional amendment. The requirement to amend the Constitution only applies to the idea of withholding public funding from schools, that’s to say - an amendment is the only way it is possible. In reality it would never happen.
I'm not sure how you can assert getting religious education out of schools doesn't accommodate parental choice; if DES won't build more schools to accommodate it, something has to give, like removing the religious education from schools (which will free more time for students to study useful things and not fairy tales.) Anything that gets the influence of the criminal RCC out of schools is a positive gain for Irish society and should be supported.
Because it removes an option which is available to parents who want that model of education for their children. Religious education simply can not be removed from religious ethos schools. The only thing that can give, is the DES refusal to build more schools in an area where there are already adequate places in existing schools. Obviously that isn’t meeting the needs of children whose parents do not want denominational education for their children.
Multi-denominational schools aren't being asked for, are they?
They are, and they aren’t. It’s just very difficult to quantify. Some parents want multi-denominational, some parents don’t, and instead they want non-denominational, no influence of religion at all - a school and curriculum completely absent of any mention of any religion at all.
And those are just the parents of children in Catholic schools!
In ET schools where the ethos of the school is multi-denominational, it’s a bit of a mixed bag, literally. Originally ET schools were established as an alternative to Catholic Education for people who weren’t Catholic, but since their foundation, they’ve become an alternative for Catholics who didn’t want a Catholic Education for their children, and now ET schools are dominated by Catholics, reducing opportunities for non-Catholic parents and their children who also do not want a Catholic education for their children, but can’t get a place in either an ET school, or a Catholic school!
As indeed is your claim of "indoctrination" Andrew. Subjective and ultimately conjecture.
You really ought to consider moderating your tone. That venomous attitude will not do anything to further your cause. I say this as somebody who is ambivalent about religion but married into a religious family. Frankly, I find myself defending the RCC, when I'm really not all that bothered. As for those who identify as catholic, you'll simply drive them to become further embedded. Try to play the long game Andrew.
So basically, the hard data suggests that 78% of the population identify as catholic. Given that almost four in five people voluntarily chose to identify themselves in that manner, they are unlikely to perceive it as "indoctrination".
I know you find this hard to comprehend Andrew, but very many people have different thought processes to you. I'd also suggest that the nasty, hectoring attitude evinced by individuals like you, will drive those on the fence, back into the arms of the church. Be careful how you operate Andrew; your attitude has consequences. Let's hope it's confined to your online persona.
So, the Catholics are going to outbreed the Atheists? Studies? Quote them. Usually Church-sponsored 'science' and based on 'surveys' so not terribly scientific at all. And I can see where a great influx of non-Catholics would indeed have some impact on the indigenous population, if they'd allow it.
As for the criminal enterprise known as the RCC, they know what side the collection plate is paid into; keep women down and keep them pregnant. Basically, livestock for the greater glory of the RCC. Hence their fatwas against contraception and abortion. But, fortunately, modern women in Ireland have access to both, no thanks to the RCC of course.
In that case Shoog, I wish you the Best of Luck.
Sorry, but that's an incredibly arrogant statement. You are not the future of religious belief in Ireland or anywhere else for that matter. Your thinking and perspective is unique and valuable, but it's only applicable to you as an individual, not an entire society.
Many, many parents are continuing to raise their children within the faith, receive the sacraments etc. You term it indoctrination; others believe it to be an integral part of their children's upbringing and education. There's also the matter of divergent birth rates between religious adherents and the non-religious. Studies from the US suggest that those who are religious tend to have higher fertility rates than those who identify as non-religious. I would also countenance caution in your suggestion that greater diversity in the Irish population will correlate with a proportional decline in religious observance. Some of our newer communities are significantly more religious than the indigenous population, including those who identify as catholic.
Quote: have said this on many threads before. But I am FASCINATED by this concept that you "Choose" what to believe. I have heard it so many times, from so many people, that I have to entertain the concept that this is what some people are capable of doing. And that is fascinating to me.
It is fascinating because I ENTIRELY lack that ability. I can not "choose" what to believe. I am either compelled without any control to belief by evidence, argument, data and reasoning......... or I fail to believe something because that substantiation is lacking. At no point do I have any choice in the matter. Even a little bit. Intellectually it feels like being thrown out of an airplane naked and then being told I am "choosing" not to fly, when it appears to me I have literally no choice in the matter.
What does it feel like to have that ability? How labile is your credulity? If I give you an empty box can you CHOOSE to believe it is stuffed full of money, and actually have that belief take hold? Or is it limited only to areas of imagination that brook no collisions with evidence or the real world.... such as belief in a god?
My lack of belief in any gods is not a choice therefore. It is a result of the simple fact that not just some, or most, but ALL theists I have ever encountered directly or indirectly simply have no arguments, no evidence, no data, and no reasoning to offer that lends even a modicum of credence or substantiation to their claim a non-human intelligence is responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe. Unquote.
Sorry if you cannot fathom it Nozz, but for me its as real as when I look up at the Sky, and see the Sun, Moon and Stars. And I cannot prove it to you or any one else in a physical sense. How do you explain something to some one when there's no words to describe what you feel? There's a passage in the new Testament, when during Jesus visit to the Apostles after he had risen, and Thomas was not present. So when he did arrive, the other Apostles explained to him what had occurred, he refused to believe them, saying " Unless I place my hands on the wounds (of the nails and spear) on his hands and feet, and on his side, I will not believe. Then when Jesus appeared the next time, he invited Thomas to place his hands on his wounds, and so believe. Then Jesus said " blessed are those who see and believe, but more blessed are those who do not see, yet believe".
So if will not accept anything without 100% verifiable proof, then you will never be convinced about the existence of God. But, vice -versa, the very same argument can be used in a counter claim, prove God does not exist.
Did the CSO question mention anything about satisfaction with indoctrination in schools?
Andrew, what religion did majority of the population identify as in the 2016 census? Do you know better than the CSO?
Faith is not specific to Christans. Muslims have faith. Jews have faith. Even conspiracy theorists have faith.
it's not an attack on faith, it's an attack on blindly accepting someone else's words for something and going along with rituals and traditions with its what everyone else does. I tried to ascertain where you were on this, but you were a bit elusive and I didn't push it.
My point is I don't and won't take anything on faith or take someone's else's word on a thing. I absolutely need verifiable evidence to alter my world view. I have witnessed nothing of God to make me take anyone's word of his existence at face value. I cannot reject what I never had.
I am the future of religious belief in Ireland. I was not indoctrinated as a child and grew up indifferent to religion. I studied all religion before deciding that none were worth following. This will be the experience of most children now growing up. The level of conformity demanded by the church is untenable to the diverse population enw have.
I am strongly antichristian because I see it at the root of many of the horrors of the last two millenia. The conflict which tore apart my families community on the north was down to religious tribalism. There is to much blood on the hands of the believers in the name of their god.
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