The beginning of the fall of the Catholic Church in Ireland (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-beginning-of-the-fall-of-the-catholic-church-in-ireland-1.4871562
Its hard to believe the power they had over the state up to very recent years. NMH lands is still a debate, but I'm glad people can chose to follow religion (if they wish).
you said "Many allegations and not all factually correct. But let's not have that biteen of truth get in the way."
this comes across as an effort to downplay the horrific rape and abuse that happened at the hands of the church instead of accepting it and demanding the church make its reparations in full without whining.
canon law should never take precedence over the actual law of the land.
canon law is just the internal rules of the church
Maybe you just forgot to offer up the work to god, that probably made you cranky.
A quick confession to the priest telling him your private business, a decade of the rosary and you'll be right with the lord again.
It must be incredibly terrifying to be a religious believer on one's deathbed thinking there is a real possibility of going to an eternal hell.
I didn’t think Caesar was traditionally a great role model for Catholic Church. But the tactic is clear “Let’s hide behind the lawyers to avoid doing the right thing”. Morality is for others apparently.
I didn't go looking for God, or religion. God found me.
As Nozz pointed out, have you ever considered the possibility that that woman likes to spend her time planting pieces of paper with pat biblical quotes around coffee shops?
Agreed the state has no role in religion, except maybe policing extremism. I don’t see that as an issue in the main Christian denominations anymore, compared to some smaller groups.
Ideology and doctrines not solely propagated by religions. One of my primary school teachers spent a remarkable amount of time talking about Nicaraguan Sandinistas, the “iron rice bowl” in China etc.
In the UK there is a demand for religious schools, even from secular people as they are distrustful and have lost respect for the state alternative.
its hard to define the number, but you can see it on the most secular states now, lots of people will always want religion. Even if the mainstream varieties wither away, there all manner of cults, “angels” and all sorts of other supernatural beliefs which people are constantly drawn too.
a holdover from previous generations and will hopefully fall by the wayside
There’s as much chance of that happening, as there is the chances of people deciding to stop having children altogether and passing on their values and traditions and beliefs to the next generation, and the generation after that, and the one after that again…
And that’s notwithstanding the fact that the Government are set to sign 40 year contracts to lease a mere handful of school properties from the Church -
https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/government-will-pay-church-to-rent-schools-that-become-multi-denominational-1272633.html
There’s a chance the Children’s Hospital might be finished by the time the first contract is finished in 40 years time, and it’ll take another 300 years for the NMH to be finished. Given that kind of pace, I wouldn’t be holding my breath for the country becoming more and more irreligious any time soon, certainly not to the degree you’re hoping anyway as they did in France over 200 years ago.
Absolutely not. I never said what you are implying!
No. I hadnt
thats why I said it comes across that way.
Do you think the church should fully pay up for reparations for all the child rape and abuse it committed?
Quite interesting you twist and turn what I said to suit your own purposes.
The quote was from the Bible - and that was to suggest that leave religion to the religious and legal matters to the legal folks.
Your notion of tactic is nonsensical. Anyone accused of anything has a right to defend themselves in law. But you don't want that.
For those that are proven in a court of law, yes. And those making false accusations should equally face the full rigours of the law, and do jail time as well as compensating their victims
By the way, the church did not, as an entity commit rape or abuse. It was individuals within said organisation who did these heinous crimes.
And "the church" is not a homogenous organisation, that the vatican owns and controls the property of each religious institute or order.
and those that have covered up child rape and abuse should also do jail time, right?
Not a bit cranky. Actually having a laugh at your drivel.
If proven in court, it is within the remit of the presiding judge to mete out the appropriate sentence if so warranted.
Are you trying to suggesting I don't agree with abiding by the law?
Exactly. Now, since when does morality have anything to do with the law of the land?
is this an attempt to shift the goalposts?
if there was an international creche operating in Ireland that had members and leadership worldwide, including Ireland, complicit in the rape and abuse of children, would we be so quick to come to their defence and insist it was just a few bad apples and that the general public should continue to fund and send their kids there?
im not so sure.
why cant you say you agree with those people being sent to jail without tip-toeing around it?
what should we do with criminal organisations who stonewall and frustrate investigations into alleged illegal activities?
What the hell are you smoking?
I said that those perpetrating the heinous crimes should face justice. I then stated the undeniable fact that the church itself, which is an institution, did not rape or abuse anyone. That is fact. Undeniable. You can try some more of your verbal gymnastics but you cannot deny it.
It doesn’t have to be internationally owned, does it?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/rte-investigates-creche-hyde-and-seek-clears-275m-in-profits-as-it-gets-125m-from-the-state-38344940.html
No-one mentioned anything about the right to defend themselves. I just thought that maybe, those who literally make their living out of preaching morality to others might have considered morality over legal rights themselves. Silly me.
She could have given you any of the 12 horoscopes for that day, and they would have seemed equally relevant to your life. Was her name Gideon by any chance?
Morality certainly doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Church's actions.
I thought the members were "the church" ?
What particular point do you object to? That due process within the law is afforded anyone accused?
Are you suggesting that once an accusation is made, the church should just hands up and acknowledge "the wrong" done, and put up no defence?
In the law of the land, no. And that's what we are talking about here, because you bring up the fact that those who are responsible for the crimes should face the law. So, let's not mix apples and oranges.
So its all a matter of personal perception then Hotblack? I choose to believe in God, the creator. And you don't , that it can all be explained by science, or if not at the moment, then at a future time. Fair enough. Its said that everything about you is shaped by time and experience, would you agree with that ? I would anyway. I don't know what kind of Life you've had that has shaped you, but with my Life experiences, good and bad , and all the questions that these experiences generated, God was the only answer that ticked all the boxes. And so here we are.
There was an article on the papers recently about the James Webb telescope, and the discussion got very excitable with claims and counter claims, and for sure, most of it was way beyond me, but the point was raised that matter never "reduces" (best I can explain it) It can change, but what was created during the big bang, is still there, and always be there. So now, that's food for thought, when words like eternity are bandied about. It raises some very interesting possibilities.
Sorry folks, I'm out for today. I have to get some sleep before starting work at 6 am. Enjoy the rest of the evening.
the church is known for protecting known child rapists and hiding evidence when possible.
i expect an organisation ,which likes to pontificate on morality and wag its finger at many, to not shield predators.
Sorry - just getting this one in before heading off.
"The church" - i thought you said earlier all believers/members were the church. So are you stating now that all members protected those who perpetrated heinous crimes? Or is it just "The church" - as in the hierarchy? Please do let me know which meaning suits you for this purpose.
I would expect an organisation (aka - the church) to not shield anyone who are guilty of crimes. Those who are brought before the law and found guilty of crimes are punished where appropriate. Surely if cases are not being brought before the courts, that is a matter for the law of the land and certainly not the organisation accused of "shielding".
There have been quite a few, including some in Ireland, accused of heinous crimes, who faced the courts, were abandoned by their organisations and subsequently found not guilty. They live with the shame and the guilt despite being innocent. Their lives have been totally destroyed by the lies of so many. And nobody believed them. Why? because of populist views that "they are all at it". And yet not a word about their accusers. No counselling. No compensation. They should offer it all up and move on.
Funny how you get so many to come forward when there's money involved - especially when you don't even have to engage in any acrimonious litigation. No evidence of abuse to be put forward, nor any physical evidence, medical evidence or corroborative evidence need be given.
There is no other area of law that would ever be given such leeway. None. And yet here we are, fully accepting of any accusation.
The false accusers, of which there are many, do nothing but destroy the innocent victims and also belittle the true and real suffering of those who have actually experienced rape and abuse - of which there are many.
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