The beginning of the fall of the Catholic Church in Ireland (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-beginning-of-the-fall-of-the-catholic-church-in-ireland-1.4871562
Its hard to believe the power they had over the state up to very recent years. NMH lands is still a debate, but I'm glad people can chose to follow religion (if they wish).
So you’ve no problem with educational materials showing gay couples and trans people then?
I admire your perseverance but there is no hope of honest engagement now. Often happens to posters that say something stupid.
teaching kids that LGBT people exist is not some sort of nefarious plan.
acknowledging them and re-assuring them, and their peers, that they are valid members of society is a good thing.
teaching kids about sexuality is not the same as teaching them about sex.
somehow I think a lot on the right conflate the two and then we end up with the moral panic/outrage from the usual suspects.
What is this LGBT ideology ?
Me thinks you see it as some sort of state conspiracy to corrupt our young. The reality is that kids get told that alternative sexualities exist and are normal biological states. Please tell us where this ideology you imagine is taught to our young and what it entails ? Please be specific so we can distinguish it from the conservative boggy man of homosexuality.
The reality actually is that due to church pressure and control of schools - most schools are not forfulling their legal obligation to provide sex education to their pupils. The scandal here is that the church gets away with this with almost no state protest.
WHich I'd agree wtih and see your point: but all this "progessive dogma" bolloxology makes you look like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
I think most people would not want alternative lifestyles pushed on primary school kids, but would still their kids to have knowledge of the terms from a reliable source. In a country like Ireland which isn't as progressive as some on the continent, the "agenda pushing" is extremly unlikely to happen.
It’s great to have the Constitution and all, but it doesn’t really help the large numbers of parents who are left with no choice but to send their children to church schools. There is no effective choice when 95% of schools are church schools. No twisting there- just the harsh reality for many parents.
Ohh Andrew you couldn’t be more wrong. You really couldn’t. One of the purposes of the Constitution is that it places a number of positive obligations on the State in relation to the education of children. What you’re proposing is turning that on it’s head to deprive children of an education which is suitable for their needs, instead of lobbying Government to uphold the rights of all children. Just by way of example -
https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2022/0520/1300216-milne-twins-autism-granted-special-school-place/
Now imagine what could be achieved by parents in large numbers!
Your personal views are in question now. Do you consider masturbation and gay sex to be normal or not?
As much as I can appreciate you’re a straight in, no kissin’ kinda guy Andrew, you’ll buy me dinner before propositioning me like that! 😳 Call it tradition, but we have very different ideas of normal behaviour if that’s the way you go on.
(It’s pointless asking have you any cop-on or basic manners at all, because I’ve learned by now that you don’t answer questions)
The progressive left jumped on the pedo priest stories to try bring down the church. Why? Because the rainbow flags are not allowed be a part of it.
The good part of the church and the good priest's help society. People hate the church so much but protested to be a part of it.
i think the main objection to pedo priests was the whole, you know, raping and abusing of kids situation.
the fact that there are some priests who do good things in no way makes up for or makes ok the raping of children or the coverups around it.
disgusting apologia tbh
People attacked the church over clerical sex abuse because it was an absolute despicable institutional cover up.
There are plenty of lay people who are still actively covering up abuse too. Only need to read today's Irish Times to see that.
If I may be so bold, and I hope you don’t mind?
Please explain how this is dogmatic.
The reason it’s dogmatic is because of your insistence that your beliefs must necessarily be instilled in children. I’m not making any commentary on the beliefs themselves, I’m pointing out how they are dogma, and your efforts to instil your beliefs in children constitute dogmatism.
I could have pointed out that your efforts amount to inculcation and indoctrination, but you only asked for how your views would be considered dogmatic. For the purposes of avoiding any quarrelling over the definitions of words, I trust that Merriam-Webster is sufficient?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dogmatic
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inculcation
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indoctrination
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dogmatism
And that’s before you try and do an end-run around the Constitution -
1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#article42
You wouldn’t be the first to make such an attempt. A handful of TDs will regularly take a punt at it, seems to be their way of signalling that they’re still alive 🙄
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2018/34/
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2021-11-16/10/
That is not what is been argued for here. The church should be perfectly free to operate within its own sphere, but it should not influence national government policy by directly lobbying government by back channels - as it has done since the foundation of the state.
The church should be judged on the fruits of it labours - and frankly thats a very mixed bag . The reason the church is in decline is because the public is judging it by its fruits.
I can tell you for a fact that there are no State resources either labour or financial that are used by schools for religious instruction.
It’s a religious ethos school, and we’ve already covered the part where religious instruction is part of the school day,
So who's doing the instruction then?
In none of that have you addressed how you believe that what is been taught is dogma. You positively avoid addressing why you consider it dogma.
The teacher of course, who is employed by the school, who receives no payment from the State for religious instruction. It goes back to that whole symbiotic relationship I mentioned earlier.
You appear to have missed this bit -
The reason it’s dogmatic is because of your insistence that your beliefs must necessarily be instilled in children.
I do have a problem with that, especially the latter
As I said earlier, those who identify as LGBT invariably are proponents of progressive ideologies , the term LGBT has now been conflated with gay itself which is of course deliberate
Any activist or NGO operative you hear banging on about LGBT, you can bet the farm on where they stand on any issue, like feminism, it's just another Marxist offshoot
whats wrong with acknowledging trans people exist ?
please detail your objections.
did you miss the G in LGBT ?
also, are you one of those "everything to the left of me is Marxist" people ?
explain what Marxism is.
The church is paying the teachers overtime? For work carried out during the prescribed working hours?
So all education is dogma by your broad definition.
But here's the problem with that position - to make a statement of fact is not an insistance that those hearing it believe it to be true. There is no pass or fail if you choose not to accept the reality of homosexuality. Otherwise the simple statement of the christian faith would require the pupils to be compelled to accept it as fact.
Can you not see the contradiction in your position here ?
Sorry, wouldn't want another PM from Mr Beasty
Saudi Arabia, UAE etc, are not developed Country's??? In these, like all Islamic Country's, beginning at 05:00 hours each day the call to prayer goes' out, and not just on radio or TV, but over loudspeakers that can be heard for miles around, and its repeated 5 times daily, 365 day's a year. So as a developed Country's, Ireland is not alone, and in comparison, the Angelus is pretty mild. And yes, its the state doing the broadcasting.
Ah, 5th amendment! Well played!
I would hope we would hold ourselves to higher standards than countries that still behead their citizens for petty crimes. Your milage may be different.
Not jumping into any censorship enthusiasts net
I was answering a question posted by another poster about which modern developed country's have state sponsored, daily calls to Prayer. And I mentioned two where this happens ( there's many more ) this daily call for the faithful is not only sponsored, but mandated and enforced. Try starting a movement in these Country's to abolish the daily call to prayer... Good Luck to you. Neither the standards or my "mileage" was the issue being discussed. Do you want to start a separate thread about Sharia Law in Islamic Country's????
I do not consider those countries developed, they are positively feudal. So as I said - if you want to measure your country against such low hanging fruit then I think you have a problem of values.
Maybe this is what the conservative types here really crave - a return to simpler times and values ?
Once again, you can talk all you like about the Constitution, it doesn't change anything for the many parents faced with no choice of school, other than religious schools. Are you now blaming parents for not working hard enough to avoid being indoctrinated at school?
Strange to see you working so hard to evade the question. It's a fairly simple question. Do you agree with the church's position on masturbation and gay sex or not? It looks like you're a bit ashamed or embarrassed by your church's position maybe?
I never said that I approved or disapproved of Islamic Country's, so don't go making suppositions about what my values may or not be. The fact is that I answered a post from another poster factually, and best you can do is side step the issue by saying that its not a valid answer because you don't approve the Country's I mentioned. And do it by insinuating that I have a problem with my values??? Tell me Shook, what's your experience with Islamic Country's? Have you lived in any of them?
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