What are the opinions here on the new ecobee smart thermostat, with supplied SmartSensor (additional SmartSensor at €50 each)
Does this do away with the requirement for Smart TRV's installed on rads? I have yet to invest in a smart thermostat, I think something like this could save me allot of effort. I can either carry the SmartSensor to whatever room I'm in (usually its the homeoffice during day, or sitting room at evening) or buy additional smart sensors and enable to presence detection feature. I'd appreciate any opinions before I buy.
https://www.ecobee.com/en-us
thanks guys for the input. i will be having a new radiator fitted in next few weeks. may be i will ask the guy to help me in replacing the panel. i will then work myself on configuration. lets see
Thanks again deezell, I have a shopping cart on the Tado site with over £500 worth of kit in it!
Think I have decided that leaving the master bedroom radiator with the lockshield in place will be the least invasive method of getting the smart set up, and possibly being able to DIY it. If down the line I am struggling to control the heat in the master bedroom with the lockshield adjustment, I can look at getting a plumber in to add the smart TRV to that radiator.
The hardware is so cheap! The heating guy who fixed the boiler when it wasn't firing up seems to offer this and do BER reports. I've to get a BER report in august after solar panels are fitted also have a leaking tap and a loose tap that i coudln't figure out so maybe if I get a few things done at once it'll be better value...I'll take the hit! Freezing the water is a clever idea.
If you run into probelms with the set up let me know as I've been through the frustration this weekend!
The main advice is if you have trouble connecting to the cloud (it will be loading for ages or sometimes give an error) in the app on your phone
Connecting to the router directly may not be necessary but it's eliminating a possible issue, a deezel suggested. I've now moved mine back to the mesh and no issues.
Hopefully the above helps you or somebody else!
I must say Drayton customer support were very responsive today when back in offce, they arrived into a blog with most of problems solved by the end of weekedn :-D
They are sending me wall mounting brackets for my thermostats as there were none with my kit. And i'm sending them a video now to show that i've no green LED working next to set up button
You'll find that even an electrician might only couple up the wires to the new hub or wired stat, but you'll have to do the device configuration yourself, usually straightforward but you can have issues of mesh networks as described earlier, or existing smart device hubs/dect phones causing interference if too close physically or in frequency to the devices own wireless spectrum (smart TRVs/wireless wall stats don't use WiFi, they use much lower power and bitrate connections to their hub, which is mains powered and can support the power demand of a WiFi connection to the router). A sparks is not going to want to get involved in this. Its no surprise that brands of 'not so smart' heating controls popular with the trade in new builds and upgrades are simple ready paired devices, or ones which will work manually with app connection a later add on for the owner to play with. EPH and Heatmiser are a bit like that.
As for installation of TRVs, a plumber will change the valve body of your rad if it doesn't already have manual TRVs, but again adding the smart TRV head is a trivial task, by screwing down a knurled ring nut to the valve. Once firmly fitted, the configuration and calibration is something you usually do yourself, the plumber may not be familiar with the brand or have ever set them up. Youll need a certain familiarity as you will have to replace batteries from time to time, which is usuallly a twist off of the smart TRV Head in the case of Tado, a little side panel on Drayton.
Churchfield home services are a company who would have the expertise for Honeywell, Nest, EPH and Climote. The latter two are not particularly versatile or smart. The Nest was a leader on it's introduction, but it doesn't have a TRV option. I remember back a long time ago a Nest installation from this company was 4 multiples of the cost of the Nest stat itself, 11 or 12 hundred euro, so they obviously considered it tedious, time consuming and fraught with problems. It was the first smart install I ever did, abroad, and to an attic gas boiler. Nest have their own unique method of wiring the stat to the receiver over a low voltage isolated pair, or wirelessly with a power adapter to the stat.
It would be an electrician or a heating company.
As dezell explained to me though it's not as difficult as you think, long as you know which trip switch is used to isolate and you can verify there's no live wires you'll be safe.
Then just connect up the wires per diagrams, comparing the old and new. The live and neutral are obvious and then just three other wires if it's a 2 zone with water. I found it very satisfying giving it a go myself, hadn't done anything like it before.
do any plumber or heating company provide installation service for replacing regular heating controls with a drayton wiser?
i dont have the skills to do it hence trying to find someone who can do it for me if i purchase all the required kit - controller and trvs
The hardware is just a trv valve body like this, https://www.stevensonplumbing.co.uk/myson-trv-2-way-valve-body-only.html
To swap out for the old manual twist one requires draining the rad, and the removal of the old manual valve from the riser pipe. To avoid draining the whole system, a plumber can freeze the water in the pipe to prevent flow while fitting. Otherwise its time consuming to close off all other rads at both ends, then close off the cold feed and drain down the whole system, followed by filling and removing air. Pumped circuits with perhaps one way valves in line can be a pith to bleed air from, hence the pipe freeze method keeps it local. An hour to hour and a half? I've no idea what a plumber charges, my heart couldn't stand the shock. Not since I was quoted €11 grand for a new oil boiler and HW cylinder during the boom.
What sort of ballpark figure would a trv valve install be?
I had wanted to keep thermostat in kitchen for the "living area" zone and then have the living room unheated during the day, and the office unheated in the evening. I think it's the most efficient strategy, that doesn't involve moving the stat from the office to the living room at evening time The valves in the older part of the house were updated but strangely the extension ones weren't!
Having researched online I found that a strange tip was to power it off, and try registering again with a different email address. I also created a new WiFi network direct from my router for the heating. I'm now connected to the cloud! Some frustration but at least I'm there. The LED not working is a strange one, but I'm reluctant to go the the hassle of remomving it and sending it back to amazon for only that reason!
I'll leave it be for a while and then try to put it on the normal house network. Not the end of the world if that doesn't work. Some people had to create a new network with no security to get it to work....that wouldn't have been good!
Thanks for all your help from system slection, through to install and then trouble shooting! A highlighy recomended heating consultant!
I've just had an email for this offer valid for a few weeks, but its more or less always available. Starter kit for £100. (€117). These are 'refurbished' but seem brand new out of the box last two I installed. TRVS are £45.49 each (€53) or £84.49 for a pair (€99). Additional wired stats for your UFH are £78 each (€92). So Starter kit stat, 2 extra wired stats and 2 trvs, £349 or €400, free delivery, Irish Vat included and that's Tado.com/ie site despite the pricing in Sterling, which they promised to rectify but still haven’t. Thats a lot of kit for €400, I've had zero problems with 'refurbished' bought for myself and family. I think they are mostly amazon returns, often unopened.
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Amazon sometimes reduce the price to under £50 for the tvrs
You do make a very valid point that I could have been over engineering the whole thing and the simplest solution would be changing the heatmiser stat and adding the smart TRV to the coldest room, but I do like the idea of individual room control for all the bedrooms.
There are a total of 8 radiators in the upstairs zone, explored leaving some on manual TRVs and leave them open and have the smart TRVs in the bedrooms, or could swap out the lockshield to the radiator in the landing and add the smart TRV to the master bedroom.
A lot to consider and good to have a clearer idea of the ins and outs. The financial outlay to all of this will also need to be be considered. Is there any particular site or source that would be considered better value than others or is direct from Tado the best route?
Try removing all the mesh boosters, reset the wiser to factory, connect your phone to the router wifi directly, the redo the hub configuration and then the wifi handover. If it works, reintroduce your mesh.
Turns out the wiring was the easy part...having a very frustrating time with drayton wiser hub
I've power cycled it, created a guest wifi network with no password, but no use. The system remains connected to the network but the app doesn't find it.
I use decco mesh system at home but googling i can't see of anybody having issues for that reason, only with 4G routers manufactured by huawei. I have a TP link 4g router. Others have used a wifi extender to circumvent the 4g router issue which seems specific to huawei so I don't think that could be the issue due to different brand and using a mesh system.
EDIT: I'll call it a day, currently on network so hopefully a firmware upgrade overnight will sort it all! Least i have 5 months before i need to use heating to get this sorted...i hope!
The error is now "Failed to verify Hub connectivity with the cloud" please try again. Googling hasn't yielded much so far! All working when i'm in the house. but won't work outside it which would be a major drawback
I managed to sucessfully wire up the Drayton Wiser and it 's on the network. Trusting the isolation switch and phase tester was hardest part :-D
It seems to be stuck on the app registering the system online for cloud access. Has anybody had this issue? or does it just take a long time?
It's common enough to leave the bathroom/hall rad open, or on its manual TRV if fitted. It will heat for any room call for heat. Such an arrangement of individual smart TRVs allows finer control of rooms heating and greater savings, provided doors are kept shut. Newer A rated houses have at least manual TRVs in all rooms except the stat equipped one, plus spring loaded door closers. New occupants invariably get fed up of the constant slamming, and disconnect the springs. Having total independent control of each room is then only partially efficient, as warm air moves from one to the other. In this case, you might only install a smart TRV as a local sensor and control in a room which consistently lags behind in heat, which is exactly your case. This goes back to your original query of having more than one stat doing the same job, turning on the entire zone, and of course this is partially what happens when most rads are open or just have manual TRVs to cap their room temperature.
Many users here have implemented full TRV setups, and the need to leave at least one open loop has been discussed, especially in the context of mixed stove/oil or gas sources. This is usuallly hall, landing, or bathroom rad, towel rail etc, plus HW cylinder. It's not an issue though in gas or oil systems, where a simple low flow bypass at the boiler will suffice to protect against closed loop should the boiler be on while the zone is fully closed, a condition that shouldn't occur unless a fault happens,
Some users have used a wireless TRV as an additional stat sensor, sitting on a shelf without physically fitting to the radiator (if it didn't have the correct valve body). This suffices to monitor that room temperature and can be programmed to give the room a boost when it falls below the main master wired stat setting. Again, the master room may heat a little past its set temperature in this instance, but it's a compromise to solve the 'cold corner' issue. I have a single TRV for this purpose on our kitchen rad. It ensures a warm kitchen at specified times, but also reduces cost by closing off during the day and earlier in the evening than the rest of the heated living space.
By now you should have a good idea of the objectives and compromises of individually heating zones, then rooms. It may be overkill if all rooms are in use, and doors are open. It could save you money if unused rooms are capped and doors closed. You might find whirring smart TRVs unacceptable in bedrooms, (I was presented with our master bed TRV like John the Baptists head after her first disturbed nights sleep).
Think it through. Don't underestimate the improvement of good lockshield valve adjustment to prevent overheating of individual non TRV equipped rooms such as your master bed, so a single extra smart TRV wirelessly linked to the smart master wired stat may be all you need to see more balanced upstairs heating. Further smart TRVs present the opportunity for tighter control and some savings, but with the caveats above.
Of course that all makes sense, I had mixed up what you had said about the wireless receiver and the wired stat from the first response.
Last question I think, it seems that the radiator in the master bedroom is the only one without a TRV, which appears to be the recommendation when having a wall mounted stat the radiator in the same room does not have a TRV. If I put a smart TRV on this radiator will it be essential to take one off another room? Obviously can just do as suggested and leave it as is and use the lockshield to prevent over heating, but this somewhat prevents the whole zone being 'smart' which would be the ideal scenario of going to do it at all.
I'm suggesting you replace the master bed Heatmiser with a Tado stat. The heatmiser has no facility to interact with other stats or TRVs, it's just a temperature operated switch, with a timer built in. There's no logic in having two different devices call the heat for the zone. The heatmiser is not confined to the master bedroom, it switches on the hot flow to the entire upstairs, but measures the temperature only in the master bedroom. Placing wireless TRV's in the other rooms requires a means to call the zone. TRV's only to a receiver relay connected across the heatmiser would be incongruous, as part of the system would be invisible to the other.
My recommendation is replace the heatmiser in the master bed with a wired Tado stat which can call for heat, but also act as a relay for room TRVs. If the master does not have its own TRV, careful adjustment of the master bed lockshield valve will minimise temperature overrun there if a room TRV calls the zone while the master is at temperature. An ideal TRV zone is when all rads have a TRV, the main stat is the wireless relay for them all, and the master bed TRV uses the main stat temperature sensor to control its operation, not its own built in sensor. (it could use its own sensor, in which case the wired stat is configured as a wireless receiver relay with no temperature measuring function). All this is configurable with the Tado system, with the only wiring being a two wire exchange of the thermostats.
TRVs which work to a receiver relay only without the need for a wall thermostat are not commonly installed, but the Drayton wiser system can be configured thus, with the TRVs calling the receiver relay, independent of the (non wired) wall stat. I consider your system best suited to the Tado wired stat, for ease of installation and expansion to the other two UFH zones.
Just so I am sure, initially when you suggested that a Tado stat could be wired into the existing heatmiser in the master bedroom, I was of the belief that these could work simultaneously. That the Tado would control the smart TRV's and the heatmiser would still control the master bedroom. From reading this reply it seems that is not the case as the master bedroom does not have a TRV, so when the Tado's are calling for heat the master bedroom will just continue to heat until the Tado's have reached temperature? Or have I totally misunderstood!?
That essay was an interesting read, good to have some understanding as to the way things work. It's also good to know that the Tado is very compatible with the UFH.
Ah ok swapping them around would be slick, didn't think of that but I'll see how I go! I could be tempted by the simple solution, as no display on the wiser and would probably have minimum interaction with the buttons on it. I'll open the fuse box up and asses cable slack
Do. I've just realised what you meant about the fuse spur in the way. Your sideways picture threw me. The Horstmann needs 100mm clearance on the left of its base, the Drayton on the right, hence the problem. Upside down as you say, or else swap the spur fuse and Drayton over, they both use identical wall boxes, you'd just need to drag cables around.
Thanks, it does look simple enough, which was a pleasant surprise. I'll keep you informed of my success!
There's just two wall screws holding the baseplate down,disconnect wires from the old base, label them. pop the wall screws out and pull off the old base. Mount the new one in its place, reconnect wires and you're done. The spur fuse box remains.
Great, I thought something was odd with my wiring when no off connections. Good to get reassurance. Yeah I've got a phase tester and confirmed the isolation when I removed the h37xl yesterday. I think getting that box off the wall might turn out to be the hardest part of the work!
You have my vote. Keep safe with the old mains, have a phase tester screwdriver to hand at all times, and get in the habit of tapping terminals before you work on them. Saved my bacon once, or more.
Use of Off connections would be rare, only in priority wiring situations.
Correct in all respects. As the master bed has no TRV valve, it will continue to heat past its set temperature when other rooms with TRV's call for heat through the Tado. This effect can be minimised by turning down the manual valve (or the lockshield one at the other end if the rad), to reduce the flow to the master when other TRVS are open with less flow resistance. It would also be a minor task for a plumber to swap the manual for a TRV valve body, to enable full individual control of timing and temperature of each room.
The Tado stats don't just click on and off either side of set temperature like simple stats, which have a heating graph of over, under, over by as much as 2-3°. The Tado will note the progression of temperature rise or fall, and will modulate the on-off cycles to approach and maintain a steady temperature. This is particularly effective on slow response systems like UFH, where it will learn the rate of change, and also factor in outside temperature by reference to online weather data. Super smart. Any nerdos like myself out there who are amused by the theory of this type of control, here's a very easy essay on the subject of proportional, derivative, etc. temperature control. https://newton.ex.ac.uk/teaching/CDHW/Feedback/ControlTypes.html
It looks our radiators have the TRV's with numbered knob which should make things a little easier.
Edited to add, just checked the master bedroom and it does not have a TRV. I assume this means the easiest option is now to wire a Tado stat to the heatmiser in the master bedroom and change the TRV's on the other rooms?
I know that the UFH heating wouldnt be as responsive as other systems in calling for heat and getting to temperature, it was more if we had been away for a week plus and had the heating turned down or off, we could use the Tado to turn it on a day or two in advance and have the ground floor at a comfortable temperature upon arrival home. Also would having the Tado smart stats for the UFH make it more efficient at maintaining temperature? The dial on the heatmiser is hard to be extremely accurate, so for instance looking to maintain 20c, should be much easier as the stat will be set to that and should it drop below this, the call for heat will begin immediately and be quicker to get back up to temp? The heatmiser dial is grand but might be maintaining slightly higher than necessary as hard to ensure the dial is bang in 20c.
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