The beginning of the fall of the Catholic Church in Ireland (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-beginning-of-the-fall-of-the-catholic-church-in-ireland-1.4871562
Its hard to believe the power they had over the state up to very recent years. NMH lands is still a debate, but I'm glad people can chose to follow religion (if they wish).
Then what's abuse got to do with my point?
In pubs and clubs, people don't sit quietly in a room listening to someone talk about how bad humanity is and then retreat home thinking that they've a whole week before they have to do it again.
Your making the point that clubs have similarities to religion. I'm just agreeing with you and expanding on it.
I'm not sure you've ever been to pub.
Fair enough. Apologies for misunderstanding.
I tend to stay away from the abuse argument because it detracts from the point that religion is a fear-based control mechanism.
Clubs are generally formed on mutual interests and positive reinforcement without attached moral conditions.
Religions are not.
Bit of a strech from "I'm not sure why people plan four years in advance to be baptized and not plan 4yrs in advance to beside the school they want"
To me providing an example of someone planning for their kids secondary education because they don't have the option available locally, to the above.
Would they not be there is the funeral had no religious element?
It's the same argument. Nothing local have to travel or move. It's just not unique to religion.
Actually no not everyone attends religious services as has been pointed out.
Even my mother who was the only religious person in our family didn't attend our local church, as even she thought the parish priest was a prick, she went to one in a different area.
Just back from mass. Crowds getting bigger every week since the lockdown was dropped. Lots of families. Great to see everyone out and happy on a sunny Sunday morning. Think a lot of people posting here aren’t really in touch with what’s going on in communities in rural Ireland.
Never ceases to amaze me how Irish people continue to obsess about how other people choose to worship or not as the case may be.
Our nearest neighbour is totally free of this suffocating obsession. Every single faith is practised every single week and the country seems to continue functioning without people needing to interfere or even comment at all.
In fact I can’t think of any other country where this goes on.
If you don’t want the Catholic Church in your kids school then tell the next prospective TD who calls to your home that you will only vote for him/her if they raise this as an issue in the Dail.
What else can you do? The truth is, if enough of parents were unhappy with the schools then things would change.
The reality is, it’s only important for a handful of parents. Vast majority are perfectly happy with the school their kids go to.
I agree you can't have a discussion about religion without every other post being about abuse. It's a vital discussion. But it's not the only discussion.
Half the kids out in clubs are dragged there against their will. Clubs are not without their problems.
I'm not vilifying clubs. Just they are subject to the vagaries of human nature and social and authoritarian structures same as everything else.
https://www.worldathletics.org/news/news/new-research-child-abuse-in-sport
Religion is an archaic organization. It seems to find it impossible to change its mindset from that.
I'd dispute the figure of "half" but I'm assuming you don't mean literally 50%, but even so, I'd imagine the number is a fraction. Dragging kids anywhere against their will when there's no practical reason for it is a bit suspect to be honest.
But none of this detracts from my point: clubs offer a much stronger sense of communnity because bonds are formed out of genuine interest, welcome you without judgement and don't use fear in order to keep you there.
Probably. Its was cultural and social event after all. I've been to funerals that were humanist but no mass. But they did have ceremony of sorts in a chapel. But that's more because it was convenient venue. I much preferred it personally.
The 50% was just opinion. But you see people treat clubs like day care.
Well clubs often have punative measures like joining fees and subscriptions. Even grading and rewarding based on attendance. It's all carrot and stick.
Interesting the higher the level in sport the higher the level of abuse. Which makes sense now that I read it.
I've heard of some nasty stuff in elderly bridge clubs, bullying etc. Which is probably a tiny %. But wouldn't really be something that would occur me. But it's at all ages. Football supporter clubs can get pretty nasty. Again a tiny minority.
Again I'm not equating this with organised religion that been around for hundreds and thousands of years. Or the level of abuse and persecution that they caused.
It's more about how authoritarian structures large are small have similar issues due to human nature.
Boards is a little insular for for sure. I'm always surprised how popular religion still is.
But people returning to mass after lockdown isn't really representative of the general decline in religion.
Ah good you're back, so now maybe you can tell me how you plan on getting rid of me and the 1 billion others.
Not really lad, replace the word Catholics with Muslims or Jews and you would be in swinging the ban hammer.
Prove it, please.
fine , just as long as that is extended to the religion of WOKE , believing that men can get pregnant or women can have penises etc
Well they didn't say it but we both know I'm right even if you won't admit it.
Nothing but the tired old victimhood fantasy. As expected.
Or any pet group of the left for that matter. There was nothing but disdain and spite towards Catholics in that post, and if the poster had their way Catholics wouldn't exist. It was written in the plainest and clearest of English, yet some will try and convince you that the obvious intentions of that poster, weren't so obvious.
Have a chat to people who actually coach youth sport or teach in music schools etc.
Many kids are forced to go cos their parents see it as cheap babysitting .
True. A lot if what you list here, though, is the dark side of human nature and there's no way aorund that.
Sounds like what you're describing here is extra-curriculuar activities as opposed to community - which is a large group of people with a common interest getting together to form one - as opposed to being told to go a religious ritual, or else...
In nearly all family groups where I am, the parents stay and attend as long as the kid is there.
That's only very young kids.
Most clubs are formed long before anyone decides to join it. The kids often don't get a choice. And adult often feel obligated to join then and abide by archaic rules.
While their isn't a priest moralising to people in pubs and clubs it is quite possible to sit there for hours alone. In any case, you've (I suspect willfully) missed my point - there is nothing that now gathers an entire community (and I mean everyone) together yearly, let alone monthly or weekly. Communities were built around the focal point that was the local Church.
You can talk about pubs all you like but do they cater to all sections of society? Do you get everyone there all at once? Concerts, being one off events are even less likely to foster a sense of community. Clubs could fill the gap theoretically, but again I've yet to find one that has broad appeal to nearly everyone living in an area and are motivated enough to attend a weekly event.
Is this the exception or the rule? I can't imagine clubs where "kids often don't get a chance" and are "obligating adults to join and abide by archic rules" are operating on a large scale basis, but even if so, I'd argue they are seriosuly badly run, probably won't last long and the adult still has the option to leave and is not told they'll go to hell if they do.
Good clubs exist. Clubs that foster community better than the church does.
You seem to have had bad expereinces with clubs and are venting.
I'm not missing the point. You're pretending that the church is the only social outlet for whole communities which is clearly ridiculous.
Regarding your final paragraph, does the church cater for 100% of people?
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