Sarcasm doesn't suit you I'm afraid
Give it a rest with the psycho analysing.
Ive said my piece, let’s let this thread move on and it can go back to the harmonious echos of agreement…….
Edit: please dont respond to this post, I’ve said it all before, not repeating again. You disagree , I’m fine with that and am happy to move on.
You don't seem to be able to acknowledge that is a war on the edge of Europe, that has the capacity to have long running impacts on all other European states, including little wee Ireland here. Last time we saw war on this scale in Europe was in 1939 & 1914 before that.
You seem to suggest that giving Ukraine some weapons is OK but giving them too many weapons is a bad idea as that will prolong things. This is very woolly thinking, the worst of both outcomes for Ukrainian citizens. Enough to salve 'your' conscience but not enough that they can drive the invading army out. A recipe for misery & death.
As we know, war is polarising. There is less room for vacillating and having an opinion this way and that. That's the way of it.
So you either support Ukraine fully and advocate that they should get as much assistance as possible, even though it impacts on us. Or you go and get a job working for the Russian embassy running their line of propaganda. To be caught in the middle, neither one nor another is to be useless and ineffectual.
by the way there is a very very serious war on
Do you actually read posts? Or do you just make things up in your head so you can poke at people?
"A certain poster" said that the mythical NATO MLRS systems you claimed were "already in Ukraine" would be much more difficult to supply than 155mm howitzers. You're now posting pictures of 155mm howitzer propellant being flown to Ukraine and trying to prove... what exactly?
I’ve already said diplomacy and/or concessions like nato agreees to leave Ukraine out.
Any other concessions you'd like for Russia to be able to dictate? Suppose they decided that they didn't want Ireland to be in the EU anymore. Should the EU "make concessions" and give us the boot?
The irony is that if things had gone Russia's way, it would have had new borders with NATO by now.
This is nonsense: the choice to fight is 100% down to Ukraine and Ukrainians. It doesn't matter how many weapons NATO supply if Ukraine don't have the will to fight: and it's clear they have that in spades.
The only decision NATO and the US have is to what extent they help Ukraine to enforce its own will and determine its own future.
They havnt enough experience,they were giving instruction on how to use newer type weapons during the week
How realisitic is it,to expect proficiancy immediately among their rank and file in combact?
Preparations for the victory parade are in full swing
According to the Ukrainians manpower isn't the issue, weapons are. Which is why they are specifically asking for them. They don't have any key issues with training and so far have adapted very well to weapon supplies sent to them.
They have a standing army of 200k to 300k, and nearly 1 million with some military training. They can't speed that up anymore than they currently are. What they can do is ask for weapons they are lacking, which is what they are doing.
Okay not sure you really addressed the question. Supplying many weapons to Ukraine, what is the consequence of it that you have valid concerns about?
Those Russian soldiers are getting more and more desperate
Tbf yous are a bit naive,the only way to ever fight a war is to escalate,escalate,escalate until one side blinks,looks to me only one side is willing to do it,so far (minor ukraine incrusions into russia aside)....while keeping door open for diplomacy and peace talks ongoing at all times
Throwing all these weapons at ukraine and giving em essentially a day course in how to use em is indeed pointless,its experienced troops that they need on the ground
Throw together a list of autocrats and see how they ended up. You might be surprised. Stalin(and Russian leaders since), Mao(and Chinese leaders since), Ne Win, Franco, Mubutu, Batista(and Castro who followed him), Pol Pot, Mugabe, Idi Amin, the Kims(so far), Assad(so far), the Shah of Iran and those who took over from him, Pinochet and so on. The list of murderous, even genocidal dictators and autocrats who died of old age in their beds is a very long one. The ones that faced justice and died in ditches is a much shorter one.
Didn't Zelensky float the notion of abandoning any move towards NATO membership?
He did this to prove that Putin is only interested in land grabbing.
The only way to deal with the likes of Putin is to tell him how things are.
Perhaps this has been done already - "Your subs aren't invisible, we know where all of them are at all times, here are the co-ordinates"
Thanks for asking me to elaborate, that’s fair.
I meant m concerned that “let’s just keep giving them more and more and more weapons” is the goto strategy. I saw that republicans are arguing that they want more of the 33 billion to be weapons over other aid. A cynic would say there’s other factors at play with this request.
Imagine we at here this time next year and it’s still “let’s give more weapons to Ukraine”. Whatever about Putin, he’s an animal , he’s gonna be a dick, he doesn’t care about how many people will die, is there a point where the west thinks it needs to stop the killing?
People may say it’s concessions and letting Putin off but his army looks sh*t, his reputation is in tatters, Sweden and Finland probably wipe out any goodwill of bits he gets in Ukraine and by end of year the eu may not be using his gas and his economy potentially in ruins. That’s not a bad warning shot to him surely …
I had written a lot more but at a certain point somebody has to sigh and walk away.
I accept you think differently to me and I’m ok with that. I don’t share the absolute confidence and stance some of you take on this topic.
Edit:
One hopes that the general consensus of all those viewing or contributing to the thread can be distilled a little by burning off erroneous arguments and condensing more valid arguments.
I know, it's not a distillery.
Raise the common denominator if you will.
Explain why you are "concerned" that Ukraine is receiving too many weapons?
What's your reasoning behind that.
Putin had an awful lot of US attention as he built up his forces and had Biden running about thither and yon + regularly talking with him about Ukraine, its future, and NATO etc. before the war. All proved to be a waste of time.
The UN Secretary General is not a Western leader and has no selfish interest in this except to have a peace break out. How did he get on? He went and spoke to Putin/Russian govt. Then he went and spoke to Zelenskyy and while he in Kyiv the Russian army fired some missiles (almost) on top of his head, just to make sure he completely got a clear message they are not so interested in peace right now, and are displeased he's treating the Ukrainian govt. as legitimate.
You are right though, there's little incentive there for Biden to go crawling to Putin in public, imploring him to stop the war (and likely have it thrown in his face). I think it is more up to Putin to invest some political capital himself now, make some move showing he might be interested in a negotiated settlement. Macron and some others have tried, and they still (publically) talk to Putin regularly. It hasn't helped and just makes them look a bit foolish (although I don't think they are wrong to keep trying myself).
No doubt Putin enjoyed and got a thrill seeing all the Western leaders incl. Biden rushing about and imploring him not to invade when he'd his mind made up to do it.
On the weapons/military aid aspect + why it is the correct policy to send them to Ukraine to help them fight Russia and try and repel their attack, won't go into that as others have covered it.
Unless your questioning that the news of the atrocities we see and hear of in Ukraine are faked I don’t know what the question is?
Its gone so far beyond the stage where a debate should be had about sending weapons to Ukraine. To leave Ukraine defenceless against such savagery would be an indelible stain on humanity.
In the context of History Irelands current policy of neutrality will be seen for what it is.
A preference for spending our money on public spending and housing social welfare etc over defence. Why pay for defence when we can continue to freeload.
It won’t be viewed the same as the 1940’s neutrality which was for far more existential reasons much and all as some people like to link it back to that.
What the actual fucj are you talking about? You're on a message board, a pretty crappy one at that, demanding a solution to a war you don't have any part in??
Like everyone else here, whether you admit it or not, you're just posting here for a bit of chat, a bit of feedback, because that's all this place is. If you actually believe you are making any difference to anything by posting on an Irish message board thread you are fooling yourself.
😅
Sorry.
What is your solution here then. Because you haven't offered one. So far it's just being 'asking questions'
What's your solution here. Because you specifically target giving Ukraine weapons as questionable policy.
All ears open on your solution to this and reasons for said solution. Go.
No it’s not that simple, what makes you think you it can make such a definitive statement like that? A person can support the supporting of Ukraine and ask questions on the support. Otherwise you blindly accept whatever the allies do in the name of supporting Ukraine. If you don’t ask questions you only know what you are told.
Not everybody deals in absolutes and sees things as black or white. I don’t think it’s healthy for consensus thinking with no room for questioning. A country Unites when it’s at war, I would expect that in ireland, but we are not at war, so we have the luxury of asking questions from a vantage point. But even at that, it’s important to have people who question consensus because the consensus is not always right, some discourse is good for society even if we hate it.
I don’t trust people and authorities who are absolutely sure in their position. Particularly when they can’t possibly (we just don’t) have all the facts of a situation. You don’t have to like a persons opinion or belief to respect then and show them some respect. My position on this, unsurprisingly, is that I am not sure what is the best thing to do or how things will unfold.
What do we know to be irrefutably true? That thousands are dieing in ukraine , the country is being levelled for 2 months. What isn’t true or a fact, is that continually blitzing Ukraine with weapons is the best thing for them. It might prove to be but it’s not clear it is.
Why do you think ireland should send Troops? I’m just asking , I always thought Irish troops were generally involved in the peacekeeping side of conflicts but then again I don’t keep up on Irish army news.
Who wants a wider war?
Hardly Russia, they'll be spread too thin and will lose in all contested areas. Also, they're hardly going to go nuclear against an alliance of other states.
So, a wider war might suit opponents of Russia PROVIDED THAT other *rogue states aren't **attracted to the fray.
* Yes, I know, they're only rogue from our Western perspective.
** By "attracted" I'm including supply of military aid in ANY form.
In essence, I guess I'm saying that a wider war would take pressure off Ukraine and invite wrath upon Putin's finite forces.
But they clearly really like cold blooded, vicious, Doctor Evil style leaders and see anyone who’s warm, empathetic and friendly as weak.
That is fundamentally one of the enormous problems in Russia. They’re constantly looking for a battle ready medieval king type of character instead of a modern political leader.
I hope Zelensky have the last word
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