The annual Teachers threaten to strike thread

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118978755#Comment_118978755

Looking at the German teacher salary I know you lived there so you probably know they have higher salaries than was said earlier the average teacher salary in Germany according to the OECD is higher than that in ireland, ireland is behind Germany in terms of pay , the cost of living is not less in ireland and as has been pointed out rent is cheaper in most parts of Germany.

https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-policies/eurydice/content/teachers-salaries-2021_en

Geuze

Last year and this year, public servants in Ireland get a 1% pay rise each year, with another 1% possible, subject to local negotiations.

I note that in the PaddyPower gambling group, the CEO and executives are getting 20%+ pay increases.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0428/1294889-flutter-entertainment-agm/

I can see why workers / unions are unhappy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118979201#Comment_118979201

Irish teachers pay tax on their earnings someone on 60k in the public sector will be paying pension contributions paye, prsi and usc to the tune of 20k which is one third of their salary that one third is paid back to the government. Its not a 60k cost if 20k is being returned and all those are compulsory reductions including the pension which post 2011 is not the gravy train you seem to think it is.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988989#Comment_118988989

Are you seriously going to ignore the costs of the lump sum, defined pension and the spouse pension in case of death in your argument?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988658#Comment_118988658

Paddy powers made 91Million in profit and have no debts , how much is Ireland inc in debt and borrowing?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/paddy-power-owner-s-first-half-profits-treble-to-72m-1.4643605#:~:text=The%20Irish%20gambling%20giant%2C%20which,the%20same%20period%20in%202020.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118988989#Comment_118988989

And yet the levy does not cover the full cost of their pensions its left to the private sector a sector where the majority cannot make a contribution to their own pensions but are expected to stump up for the 400k+ public sector workers..How is that fair.

dubrov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118989843#Comment_118989843

In fairness, the public sector pension is way overrated these days.

It has been reduced to being based on salary rather than final salary and there is a large pension contrinbution+levy towards it. Also factor in, it is netted off against the state pension makes it worth very little at the lower end of salaries.

Sure, it's better than nothing, but it is more around the 5% of salary range now rather than 20% plus in the past. I'd say job security is far more attractive than the pension these days.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118989838#Comment_118989838

You seem confused between the roles of public servants and politicians.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118989843#Comment_118989843

It is the contract that was given to staff, the basis’ for them deciding to take the job. Decent employers don’t walk away from obligations.

Dont know why you’d think that employees should cover the full costs of their pension. Most decent employers will be contributing to the costs of their pension.

Danno

You think a driver for a bus company "just" does school runs?

Goes to show how some in the public have no grasp for how private enterprises function.

No wonder we're useless at fostering entrepreneurs in Ireland when they don't understand how businesses work.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118986318#Comment_118986318

It's a bit sad that some people seem to be solely motivated by money, fumbling in the greasy till...

Who's looking for a payrise again?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991081#Comment_118991081

Or maybe it’s because most entrepreneurs are just chancers?

Remember the great entrepreneurs Bill Cullen and Jay Bourke on TV advising others how to run their businesses? They’re both bankrupt.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118989838#Comment_118989838

The parent group of Paddy Power has long-term debts of 3.5bn, compared to revenue of 6bn.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118989843#Comment_118989843

Correct, the two pension contributions made by most public servants do not cover the full actuarial cost of their DB pension.

And it shouldn't.

The employer should also contribute.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118990965#Comment_118990965

Yet they also signed up for the incremental system when they decided to take the job and are looking for pay rises out side of this. You cant have it both ways. Most decent employers cant afford it , either can the state yet it still gets paid.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991150#Comment_118991150

As I say you need to look at how many people get this in the private sector, defined benefit pensions are being eliminated fewer than 600 now, it cant be afforded by either the companies or by the employees and it is also open to abuse by the government of the day to be used as their own slush fund to cover deficits in spending as was seen when it was raided before. Its very unfair for anyone to be asked to pay for someone else's pension when they cant afford their own.

https://www.irishtimes.com/special-reports/pensions-focus/defined-benefit-pensions-perhaps-most-valuable-asset-you-own-1.4379790#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20latest%20figures,to%20fewer%20than%20600%20nowadays.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991148#Comment_118991148

And if paddy power goes bust how much am I as a tax payer on the hook for or if they give bonuses how much extra do I pay in taxes? answer is zero. This is where this argument fails. There is a direct correlation that can be seen now with regards to the levels of both public sector pay & pensions and welfare to the amount of tax, debt and reduction in services that we as a nation have to contend with.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991096#Comment_118991096

They must have had bad teachers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118994825#Comment_118994825

Except that we don't teach entrepreneurship in schools, so hard to blame teachers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991893#Comment_118991893

The bit that you keep missing, you being the man who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing, is the public services provided. If you want to have quality staff around to provide quality public services, you're going to have to pay them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991881#Comment_118991881

You have heard about the Single Pension Scheme, brought in by the Troika in 2013, right?

And you realise that if you switch new staff to a DC scheme, you're going to be doubling up with both DC AND DB payments for a couple of generations, which would be a pretty hard sell politically?

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991150#Comment_118991150

The employer does not pay anything. It's the taxpayer that pays for this

A more general point though. Do the teachers think they are worth a higher payrise than other employee groups?

If they get 10%, then surely everyone else should be getting 10%. After all, it's every taxpayer that pays the teachers. Everyone is facing higher prices. If everyone gets 10%, that's going to pretty much add 10% to inflation (ignoring inflationary impacts of Covid, the Climate Crisis, the war in Ukraine etc). So at the end of all that we are back where we started, except for the disruption caused by an inflationary cycle. And in the meantime to try and keep a lid on inflation interest rates go up. That results in higher mortgage costs. So actually many people (from all professions/jobs) actually end up worse off

The way to avoid this is to temper pay claims. To accept that no one group is more badly done to than any other. To accept that high pay claims for any profession/job is actually counterproductive

I suspect the answer will be that teachers think they are worth more than they are paid. Then nurses and doctors think something similar. Guards and other emergency services also think they are underpaid. The whole of the public sector in fact then believe they are worth more of an increase than others. The private sector is left playing catch up. Inflation grabs hold.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991867#Comment_118991867

Increments reflect deepening skills and experience, and are common in large organisations, public and private.

And yes, they're looking for pay rises, with the little matter of 7% inflation to deal with. Otherwise, they're getting pay cuts.

JayPS 2288

Beasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118995369#Comment_118995369

All that's happening is we are all paying for the debts we have created - be those historic for funding the nation or paying for the incremental costs arising from the "shocks" to the global economy that I mention in my previous post. Basically the chickens are coming home to roost and we have debts to pay or pass it onto future generations to pay for our extravagances.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118989310#Comment_118989310

No are you seriously saying all teachers are paid a lump sum every year, you retire once, the defined pension scheme is not the gravy train it was since it was changed in 2013 that has been done away with, I thought you would be happy about that no?

Nothing Ive aid above is untrue. The pension benefits will not be seen till retirment until then thos figures I quoted are correct and represent a 3k gross salary less than a PAYE worker.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118995358#Comment_118995358

In the private sector the employer contributes to the employees pension. In the PS the employer is the govenrment funded by the tax payer. It just so happens that PS workers are also tax payers, unless you want to ignore the fact that teachers pay tax and are service providers. If we sack all teachers and privatise education do you think it would be cheaper for the taxpayer or more effective?

The unions job is to advocate for its members, with inflation predicted to 6.5% by the end of the year no one is expecting a 10 % increase. Whether we get an increase or not interest rates are going up next year the ECB have made a commitment to hold rates till the end of 2022 but nothing thereafter. So everyones mortgage is going up next year, along with diesel costs energy costs and food costs. The only question is whether a PS increase will help PS workers cope with those increases. The private sector can advocate for themselves, financial sector tech industry pharma they have all had significant wage increases, private business and the self employed can adjust for inflation by upping the cost of their goods or services. It happens, I'm building a house at the moment labour only tradesmen prices have increased on 4 quotes there has been from 10 to 30% differential in price that's upwards of 6k that's a significant adjustment, builders merchants are the same, same product 10 to 30% difference in price depending on where you shop, I've lived it everyday for the past year. PS can only rely on unions to advocate for them and yes this is a significant rise in inflation it will and is harming many families in both private and public And again a PS pay increase of 5% is in reality an increase of half that to the exchequer because its funded from tax intake and will be returned in the higher rate of income tax. And before its brought up again the 30 odd years il have to wait for my PS pension is not worth jack to me right now its a deferred benefit which will not pay any of my bills right now. Its not about whether teachers are worth more or less than others that's a legacy issue from 30 years back when people had respect for different professions in the community, teachers are not held in any regard today as is evidenced by this thread, its about adjusting for a very significant increase in the cost of living.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118995510#Comment_118995510

Same applies to EVERY aspect of public expenditure