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Should we limit the number of TDs to 160

Sam Russell

Following the census we have just submitted, it is likely the Dail numbers will increase by a significant amount - between 169 to 179 or so.

There is a requirement in the constitution stipulating the number to be at least one TD per 30,000 of the population. The numbers will be swelled by the Ukraine refugees, as the number is defined by population, not voters.

Now the number of legislators required should not be proportional to population - well not a simple proportion, because as the population grows, we do not need more TDs, otherwise countries like Germany, or the EU, would have huge parliaments/assemblies.

So how should the number of TDs be arrived at? Let us assume 160 for the moment - currently 160.

Well we need a Taoiseach, so that is one. We need ministers to run departments, and that is capped at 15. We have Junior ministers, again about 15, but that has grown as needs of coalitions mean an extra one or two are needed to balance political numbers. Add a few committee chairmen and deputies - say another 15. So we get to the number of TDs on the Gov payroll getting up to 40.

So if the Gov has 40 TDs in some form of executive roll, then that means 50% of Gov TDs are considered able to carry out those functions. Now given anyone can run for the Dail, and any of those could be elected with the only stipulation that they get enough popular support (votes), they any elected TD could be of any level of ability. So if 50% of Gov TDs are selected to serve in the executive and are selected on merit (generally true, but not always) then 160 TDs should be enough to get a good set of individuals with sufficient abilities to run the country.

To limit the number to 160 would require a constitutional amendment. Would it be worth it?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/census-2016-shows-the-number-of-tds-breaches-constitution-1.2722184

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breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993440#Comment_118993440

Ya that was the joke they got very quiet once it was done but I suppose they knew us uneducated whelps can't hold them to account. I must write to Norris and ask him when the "plebs" are gonna get a vote.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993384#Comment_118993384

It was never promised by anyone in any position to implement it. The referendum was keep as is or ditch; reform was never on the table. But some people convinced a lot of the electorate that it was!

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993313#Comment_118993313

That's true but the OP was specifically about our lower house and the representation per head so I believe it is a valid comparison.

The Seanad members don't represent geographic areas so it's not like you can just add those numbers onto the Dail ones in order to compare our representation per head of population to other parliaments. Nobody ever says "I'm going to complain to my local Senator!"

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993313#Comment_118993313

When is that Seanad reform the senators promised us happening by the way ?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992975#Comment_118992975

Finland is unicamarel, we've two houses. Although our proposal to go unicamarel didn't increase the numbers in the lower/only house at all.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992975#Comment_118992975

The councils is the big difference between us and the UK. Just look at NI and you see that have way more than the 1 per county stuff we mostly have. So it's often less of one and more of the other.

Brussels Sprout

They discussed this topic on this week's Irish Times Politics podcast. They made the point that although people often say that we have very high numbers per head of population apparently that's not really true. When you compare it to the UK it is but if you compare us to EU states we are about average. For example Finland has a slightly larger population than us (5.5m) but has 200 members of parliament.

We also have ridiculously weak local government.

For that reason I would only think it would be a good idea to cap the numbers in the Dail if powers were devolved to the councils. As part of that I think that councilors would need to be full time and paid a proper wage.

If you just want to cap the numbers in the Dail and not reform local government then you're creating a democratic deficit in relation to where we are today.

dasa29

The number of TD's has changed in the last three Elections as follows:

2011 Election: 166 TD's

2016 Election: 158 TD's

2020 Election: 160 TD's

Up till the 2011 election the number of TD's in the Dáil was 166 but was revised after the 2011 census and reduced to 158 TD's for the 2016 election. Following the census in 2016 the number of TD's was changed from 158 to 160 TD's for the 2020 election so following the census this year it might change again.

Also The Electoral (Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Act 2017 (No. 39) is a law of Ireland which revised Dáil constituencies and the Act implemented the recommendations of this report and repealed the Electoral (Amendment) (Dáil Constituencies) Act 2013, which had defined the constituencies used since the 2016 general election. It increased the range for future revisions by the Constituency Commission of Dáil constituencies from between 153 and 160 TDs in 2011 legislation, to between 166 and 172 TDs

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992670#Comment_118992670

Or even just something as simple as a TD for every 32 or 35k instead of 30k

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118992554#Comment_118992554

Certainly, the number could be calculated on a basis that is not strictly proportional, but raises from a base and as the numbers grow, the increase is less. So, say, a 10% increase in population causes a 5% increase in numbers. The UK are reducing the number of MPs, particularly in Wales and Scotland. (I wonder why a Tory Gov with an 80 seat majority, mainly based in England, would do that).

As for counties, it would make sense to redraw local Gov areas, so that cities on county boundaries can have larger hinterlands that cross county boundaries. I am thinking of Limerick and Waterford, but others might be affected. Plus, of course, the powers of LAs should be made must clearer and more accountable - but that is a different matter.

breezy1985

It should certainly not be fixed to a max number but I would be ok with raising the TD to person ratio a little.

It would also be great if Irish people could get over the county nonsense but we are nowhere near that sadly.

L1011

A fixed number would cause much more disruption to constituency boundaries than the current system as it'd cause areas with static population to have to reduce in representatives.

LasersGoPewPew

Sam Russell

Restricting the number of TDs does not really reduce representation in any significant way. It is not proposed to reduce the number - just fix it at the current level. The number of TDs depends on the population, not the number of voters.

The Dail cannot physically hold more TDs that 169 anyway. Perhaps we should build a special new building to house them - maybe on a greenfield site in Athlone or maybe in Cork and hope it costs less than the National Children's Hospital.

The numbers are not a great change but would it make a difference? At the moment Wexford has 5 TDs, a redraw of the constituency would probably result in two three seater constituencies, or the constituency boundary changing which would mean voters moving to s different constituency. Is that what you want? How does that work for representation? The sitting TD sees their home base split between two constituencies, or a county like Leitrim becomes a county without a TD for their county but shared by two other counties.

I think it would bring a bit of stability to our system.

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058243722/should-we-limit-the-number-of-tds-to-160

You're missing out on another important role of the Dail - they are a representative body, they are elected to represent their constituents, not just the voters. Why would we dilute that representation needlessly? And how could we do it fairly? the Dail is more than the executive alone, the more we dilute representation the less our individual voices are heard. The cost of TD is miniscule in perspective, and protecting our democratic rights is worth the extra cost in my opinion.