We’re not importing more to be downtrodden and disenfranchised in the first place, that’s why I made no mention of skin colour or ethnicity or culture or anything else. There’s plenty are already downtrodden and disenfranchised and anti-immigration, anti-multiculturalism measures haven’t done anything to address their circumstances.
Of course we've imported more. This is a plain as the nose on your face fact. Before the late 90's we simply didn't have the extra people we have now that require social assistance. We had our own, but we imported more and on top of that more clearly intractable problems around ethnicity. 45% of Africans in Ireland have jobs. 55% don't. We didn't have those tens of thousands of extra pockets to fill from the public purse 25 years ago. If we hadn't had pregnancy passports in play we wouldn't have the vast majority of those tens of thousands. After it stopped being in play, over 90% of such applications were rejected as bogus. Did something again magically change?
And as we've seen in every single other multicultural nation in Europe these same patterns are in play. The UK example today is a near mirror image of ours today. They had seventy years of this failed social experiment, we've had barely over twenty. Look to France, Germany, Holland, anywhere you care to look and the same patterns and trends emerge. It's not that we couldn't see this coming or needed a crystal ball to see it coming, it was and remains scarily inevitable. And each one of those different nations had different apporaches, different politics, different histories and yet the outcomes always remain the same. And I would say racism is a large part of it. Apathy is an easier out. Regardless of the reasons not one 'multicultural' nation has been able to offer long term solutions.
And as you point out our government hasn't been much use at fixing our existing problems and we added more and different ones on top. Look at the current debacle with Ukrainian refugees as the perfect example of that. Just this Christmas we had a worsening and seemingly intractable housing crisis and a worsening and seemingly intractable(for decades) health service crisis and were coming out of the back end of a once in a generation emergency with covid and yet as if by magic the government and too many people understandably running on feelz rather than thinkz got mass amnesia about all that and said ah sure let's invite 200,000 more people in and give them full support and no caps on the numbers. Though one of the talking heads ministers who cheerleads this suddenly rowed back on offering her own gaff. Ireland has officially "Gone full retard" and as Tropic Thunder reminded us, you never do that. But we did.
As for any ideas that we can’t talk about whatever, I disagree, the last 400 or so pages in just this thread alone would definitely suggest otherwise. There’s nothing stopping anyone talking about whatever they want, everyone has an equal right to freedom of expression. What they’re lacking is the ability to compel anyone to agree with them.
Really? Well when and where have you ever seen anything approaching the debate on this thread on RTE, or any of the radio stations or by any government minister? Never mind the number of posters on this thread who were screeching that this debate was racist and should be closed. When the 2004 referendum was happening the media and many government types in opposition were screeching about the racism of it all, even when the Irish electorate returned a vote to close that loophole in a greater percentage than either the Repeal or SSM referendums. Our media and government take the position of "nothing to see here, carry on" and any debate around the subject is left to nutters and actual right wing racists on youtube and the like. It is a subject that is off the table for official Ireland.
Why couldn’t you blame anyone who thinks like that? Anyone who imagines they’re better off at the mercy of the State is entirely responsible for thinking they’re better off in that position than they are trying to better themselves. It’s short-sighted and immature, but there aren’t that many people will actually care either way.
The vast majority of people still continue to work towards something and the vast majority of people will continue to work towards the kind of life they want for themselves and their families. There really aren’t a lot of young people thinking that they’d be better off on the dole, because they look at people on the dole the same way you do - you’d be on it already if you actually thought you’d be better off.
Well, everything shifted. We're entitled now. In the past, it was only really the inbred upper class who were entitled to certain standards of living or benefits. However, nowadays, the average joe is entitled to... well.. anything you care to mention. Everyone has rights. Never mind that giving rights to everyone means that someone else's rights are diminished, where do we get the resources to provide and protect everyone's rights?
I sympathize with people trying to get their first home. I really do.. but there's now an expectation that their first home will be perfect. I bought a **** little cottage, did it up myself, and resold it for a 26k profit, which allowed me to invest in a townhouse, which I kept until I could sell it again for a profit, and I'm still, at least, a decade away from being to afford the kind of house I want (not big, just well built and not in an estate). But to suggest any kind of waiting, or creeping along a ladder of success, and you'll be battered by what people are entitled to [I appreciate the market now is fcked, but even a few years ago, the same entitlement was in play]. In all honesty, I'm pretty sure I can't afford to live in Ireland long-term... inflation and government spending will ensure that taxes rocket up, and I have zero desire to live in debt for the remainder of my life (and possibly pass it off on to others). And, TBH, I'm not really sure why anyone would want to, when you can have a better standard of living elsewhere, for a lower general attack on your disposable income (and all the costs that come after you get your disposable income).
So, yeah, I can see the POV of living off welfare. I suspect quite a lot of people will work, earn an income, but need welfare supplements. That's already the case for a large number of people, and that's without looking at social housing.
Nah.. this country is quickly speeding towards a brick wall. The behaviour of the government over Ukraine and the Housing situation (for Irish people) fills me with dread for what comes next.. because likely SF will get into power. Yay. Imagine adding reunification, with the wide range of social problems, and the incredibly high long-term costs, to the rather long list of issues facing the Republic.... in addition to their extremely pro-immigration stance.
Lordy lord.
I think the problem is only going to get worse too. People once worked to work towards something, renting a house, then owning a house, building towards something, but with the state of the country at the minute the incentive to work hard isn't the same as it once was, because you work hard to get nowhere nowadays. Renting is becoming a luxury, while owning was once seen as a standard thing, and not a long shot. I know I'm personally in that situation at the minute, and I'm finding it hard to motivate myself to slave away while I'm not going anywhere. I'm sure a lot of younger people are thinking the same thing, and might decide that a life on the dole is better than current 9-5 living, and I can't really blame them for that.
100%, it's very noticeable in Ireland that those who whinge most about the government are the same ones that take the most handouts from the government
I sort of agree with you, the Welfare State isn’t helping, and it doesn’t help anyone in those circumstances. I do think the same money that’s spent on perpetuating the issues could be better spent on providing actual supports and resources that would encourage and motivate people to better themselves.
That’s an almost Herculean task though when you’re surrounded by people who would accuse you of having notions if you tried to better yourself, because they like the misery. What would they have to complain about if they weren’t miserable?
One of the highest social welfare payments in Europe.
Subsidised housing.
Free education up to and including third level.
Childrens allowance and multiple other allowances for children.
CWO's for those who fall on hard times.
The problem isn't not helping those who are "living in poverty and misery", the problem is we make it too comfortable for them to stay there.
We’re not importing more to be downtrodden and disenfranchised in the first place, that’s why I made no mention of skin colour or ethnicity or culture or anything else. There’s plenty are already downtrodden and disenfranchised and anti-immigration, anti-multiculturalism measures haven’t done anything to address their circumstances. All they’ve done is make the same people even more resentful and bitter than they were already, and without immigrants and other people who aren’t like them, who else are they going to take out their frustration on only each other? Always looking for ways to differentiate themselves as being superior in some way to other people, and play the victim when questioned about why they haven’t done anything for themselves.
I don’t imagine education on it’s own is the solution, and I don’t think it’s driven by racism either to be honest. I think it’s just driven by people who elevate people who are like them, and they don’t care much for people who aren’t. It’s apathy more than anything. People here arguing to keep immigrants who haven’t the means to fend for themselves out of Europe are using people already living in poverty and misery as a means to say we should help those people first. I might think they had a credible argument if they were actually trying to help those people already, but according to your own characterisation that would make them lefties or dreamers or basically anything that you view negatively, and they couldn’t be having that, cos that’s icky.
I do agree there are cultural and internal aspects in play, and clearly there are similar cultural and internal aspects in play for all groups when statistics are used which don’t represent the true numbers of people who are unemployed or not in the labour market. Expressed the figures as percentages hides the true numbers of those who are unemployed, etc - far more people unemployed who aren’t immigrants, in run-down shitholes which Government will piss money down the drain on regeneration schemes to put money in their friends pockets than anything these schemes will do for the people living in those areas.
Simply put - the political will isn’t there, and politicians don’t care about whether these people do or don’t vote, they only care about the people who are like them too!
As for the "most downtrodden and disenfranchised in society", fine, so why are we importing more to be downtrodden and disenfranchised? As an example there isn't a single western "multicultural" nation on Earth where Black people aren't more likely to be at the lower social, educational and economic end of society. So how do you propose to change just that aspect alone of this multicultural pipedream? If you know of a way do share because not a single other nation has been able to manage it and I'm sure they'd love to hear your solutions. Well any that go beyond peace and love and prayers. "Education" is an empty solution too. And yep racism is a huge chunk of the reasons why, but that hasn't been solved anywhere else either.
I'd love to hear how they'd plan to remove our own lowest socio-economic class... It's not as of our own poor/disadvantaged suddenly get elevated into a new and better position, because all these Black people are pushed into such a position. I could understand, somewhat, to encourage the creation or expansion of a foreign born poor grouping, if it meant removing our own, but that doesn't happen. In spite of decades of social programmes to reduce our own lowest economic groups, very little real success has happened. Just look at Travellers for example. Very little has changed for them economically, except for a greater reliance on State supports, and marginally better living standards.
As with most thing, the negatives are swept aside as being inconvenient to the absolute truth. We're right and you're wrong. That's it. And they don't really care who suffers as a result of it. It's not as if the poor have to compete with each other for the resources made available to them.. nah.. resources are infinite.
You can't hold it against the youth for being idealistic, even though I was never into such idealism at their age, but the problem with many of these types is that they never grow out of it. There's people in their 50's & 60's who believe in these fair tales, the same type of people who mock the religious for believing in something that can't be proven or disproven, when their own beliefs have been disproven many times over. Unearned hubris is a common trait with so many people on that side of the isle.
Well if Ireland after barely twenty years of trying "multiculturalism" out already has damned near the exact same trends of the UK(and elsewhere) after seventy years of trying the same sociopolitical experiment out, it does seem like a distinct pattern and an intractable one.
Wibbs, it reminds me of the Student Union socialist types (ages 20's, 30's,40's +) that say that Communism/Marxism was never properly implemented but that WE (i.e. the ego-driven speaker and their ilk) are so much smarter and can get it to work. This time.
Or that we just need a new type of Marxism/Socialism/Communism to prevail. And that their version WILL work damnit.
A large part of the promulticulturalist crowd is of the student leftie "sticking it to the racists maaaan!" kind. They've pretty much zero argument beyond that and as we've seen repeatedly they will even acknowledge that by saying there is no argument around it it just is and is inevitable. Oh and "I love seeing exotic people about the place" of course .
Still smells of sackcloth and ashes to me(organic and ethically sourced of course).
As for the "most downtrodden and disenfranchised in society", fine, so why are we importing more to be downtrodden and disenfranchised? As an example there isn't a single western "multicultural" nation on Earth where Black people aren't more likely to be at the lower social, educational and economic end of society. So how do you propose to change just that aspect alone of this multicultural pipedream? If you know of a way do share because not a single other nation has been able to manage it and I'm sure they'd love to hear your solutions. Well any that go beyond peace and love and prayers. "Education" is an empty solution too. And yep racism is a huge chunk of the reasons why, but that hasn't been solved anywhere else either. In Ireland even after barely two decades of this social experiment we're seeing the exact same thing playing out. Again.
From that Irish Times article above:
Sixteen per cent of African nationals living in Ireland were unemployed last year, compared with 7 per cent of Irish and 4 per cent of western Europeans living in the State. Just 45 per cent of African-born nationals have a job. More than 63 per cent of Congolese were out of work in 2016, the highest of any group. The unemployment rate among Nigerians was 43 per cent.
Our neighbour the UK with many more decades than us of running this multicultural experiment still hasn't figured it out:
In the twelve months to September 2021, the unemployment rate was highest for people from a Black (11%) ethnic background and people from Mixed or multiple ethnic backgrounds (11%). It was lowest for people from a White (4%) or Indian (5%) ethnic background.
And it's not just about race either, because:
People from White (3.5%) and Indian (4.4%) ethnic backgrounds had the lowest unemployment rates, and people from Pakistani (10.2%) and Bangladeshi (9.4%) ethnic backgrounds had the highest rates in October-December 2021.
So British Indians were among the least likely to be unemployed, yet British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis were the most likely? Same "race" last time I checked and British racists would see the same Brown "Paki". So there are clear cultural aspects at play and internal ones. Though we don't dare talk about them.
Hopes and wishes are laudable, but reality stands there looking at its feet. What's that old quote about doing the same thing time after time and expecting a different result?
At least ye are finally giving up the facade of believing in integration.
Ah yeah, but if you lived in lovely imaginationland like other posters, you'd see it!!
The Ukrainian refugees are almost entirely women and children, very few men, a lot of quite educated people. I haven't met any of them so far who would be looking to work on a building site.
I thought you'd need the box of kleenex for it alright going by your previous posts...
Love that letter
hmm.. remember all those comments about a melting pot of cultures? Wonder how all those countries are doing now..? We want you to keep your own identity from your homeland, while sharing with us everything that's foreign about you, and maybe, our society will become less Irish as a result. Yay! (after all, assimilation of foreign culture is not the aim, but rather that it stands distinctly separate so that we can look at it in awe, and look back at our own culture in sadness because its not as rich and interesting as others)
The mind truly boggles at the short-sighted stupidity of it all. All anyone has to do is look at other nations that tried all this rubbish. The US? Messed up beyond belief with different cultural identities fighting each other for minority rights and benefits. The UK? haha.. not even worth going there. Denmark? A demographic shift that should shock everyone but gets quietly swept under the carpet. Sweden? the rise of the far right, with violent clashes in the streets, and bombs going off. And the list goes on and on.
But do we take notice? Nope. Not even slightly. Welcome! You're Irish but we expect you to retain your foreign identity. Bloody hell. It's official, our politicians are truly **** retards.
According to Helen...we'll be all the richer for it
Now that the reality is sinking in and the pressure starting expose the cracks in the "plan" (which most of us could see from the very start), there's no more social media kudos in it for her.
I'm not surprised that it was the Indo to break the story though. They've been chasing a story on donations involving her recently too. Someone definitely doesn't like her it seems.
You’re just after demonstrating that it can be made up, and you did. My flippant retort wasn’t motivated by any sort of white guilt. It was in response to the poster presenting the usual “Europe good, everywhere else bad” false narrative, as if European countries literally are whiter than white! They’re clearly not, and when someone is making that same “Everywhere else bad” point, then it absolutely should be pointed out to them to remove the beam from their own eye.
There’s no hatred of white Europeans or anything else, it’s simply acknowledging that history is more nuanced than simplistic narratives. The same chest-beating patriots claiming modern Western society is superior, are the same lads claiming Western society is weak with all the wokey, limp-wristed lefty-lib… etc, and they wouldn’t work to warm themselves! They’re taking credit for the work of a small number of people in the West, while pointing out that everywhere else is inferior, based upon the behaviour of a small number of people!
It’s not importing illiberal elements that weren’t exported in the first place by European Colonists in service of their Monarchs who thought of themselves as greater than God and wanted to spread their Kingdoms on earth. It’s not unusual or unreasonable that rulers in the Middle East would infuse their followers with an equal disdain for Western ideas of liberal democracies either. Banning headscarves is easy, shipping people off to former colonies is easy, expensive, but easy. That’s taking candy from a baby stuff. Doing something that will actually alleviate suffering of the poorest and most downtrodden and disenfranchised in society is what’s actually hard.
I don’t have anything to feel guilty about, and I don’t have anything to be ashamed of either, and I’d challenge anyone who tried to associate me with some of the wingnuts on here who claim to represent the Irish people jeering and cheerleading at what politicians in England and France are doing to other human beings in order to save their own skin.
But not in her own home.
Nope not doing it anymore.
Pointless and meaningless whataboutery. They also created the modern world and industrial revolution and they are the reason we are so advanced that we can converse using these devices, but still, nothing to do with the topic.
How is it pointless and meaningless whataboutery when it was a direct comparison to your equally flippant nonsense? Did a bang-up job of creating the modern world too, didn’t they? Still the same as the old one, only now instead of having their minions look the person in the eye when they’re killing them, it can be done from a safe distance, like the other side of the globe safe distance, and politicians don’t have to get their hands dirty at all.
There’s fcukall in the way of nuance in your post and frankly I can’t be arsed, but imagining that either the French or the British alone were responsible for the industrial revolution or that they alone responsible for us conversing on the devices we’re using, is being wilfully ignorant. Where do you imagine they got the resources?
What I outlined was pure speculation on my part so I can't offer specifics. That being said, in terms of funding, I would liken the situation to covid i.e. its an emergency, so borrowing could be facilitated through the EU in some form (bonds, EIB etc). You can be damned sure a lot of countries are going to need to borrow a lot to accommodate refugees from this war.
As for manpower and skills, well a few hundred thousand refugees should contain some with the required skills as well as plenty who would be looking for work who could be trained up.
I'm not saying it would be easy, it wouldn't and again, its pure speculation on my part so this may not even come to pass.
Magic Money Tree does it again!
Don't worry, He will magic it all up. We''ll be grand.
And where do you suggest to get the manpower and skill set required, or pay for the costs involved etc?
If the Governments of the last decade haven't been able to do this then how do you imagine this happening now given the issues we're already facing?
Is it just me, or do others feel the same? Genuine question.
Ahh well, I remember quite clearly when the PC movement was in full swing, and the attitude against anything opposing the virtuous was the pits of evil, and squashed. A lot like the way the topic of multiculturalism and immigration is managed in this country.
Yes, the thread is definitely circular/repetitive... however I think it's important to continue the presence of an objection against it, because we haven't reached, in this country, any serious position where these issues are dealt with in a balanced way.
Remove the thread, and we'll simply go back to the social silence relating to the topic, and I'd prefer to avoid that. It's also a good place for people to try out arguments, and find logical sequences for countering the exclamations of the emotionally driven. Lastly, I find it's a good reference thread, to use when I encounter those who failed so badly to promote multiculturalism, but find them on other threads. Helps to avoid going into the massive detail or the provision of links/articles which we did earlier in the thread.
So, yeah, I see definite value in keeping the thread going.
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