If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
He has a point.
If the UN want to send in peacekeepers to Ukraine, we cannot participate because Russia as being members of the UNSC would veto it, thus we cannot contribute.
You are OK with that situation. In fact you defend it to the hilt.
Nothing I am seeing now changes my mind in the slightest and it seems the majority of Irish people agree.
It's you guys that are the outliers here, not me.
Although off topic, I am interested in this hypothetical here.
Are you basically saying that if the Brits did not send in peacekeeping troops (which they really really did not want to do). If instead the Irish defence forces went in as peacekeepers then all the troubles would not have happened as the IRA would have been marginalised.
If so, I think that is an interesting view, naive but interesting.
Personally in this scenario I think the DF (and Ireland) would have been targeted by loyalist paramilitaries in exactly the same way that the Brits were targeted by republican paramilitaries in real life. So you would have had the troubles in exactly the same way but instead mostly on Irish soil - Dublin rather than London, Cork rather than Birmingham, etc, etc.
Eh no, he wanted to send in the Irish troops AFTER the British troops were there, effectively invading a NATO power at the height of the Cold War. Naive is one description.
Some day there will be a big reveal when we discover that Francie and blanch are the same person, it would be a great long play.
The moral imperative of our government and DF's is/or should be, to protect it's citizens. Like those that go on foreign peacekeeping missions they of course know there may be a price to pay for that. It quite rightly doesn't deter those missions nor should it have done here in our own country.
They didn't protect and a vacuum formed where a community of Irish people had nobody to defend them, the IRA filled that vacuum. What's even worse is that Lynch and Wilson knew what would happen.
What?
More lies.
I said they should have gone in BEFORE the British were embarrassed into sending troops in August. That deployment eased the crisis and the BA was broadly welcomed given the relief that brought. That didn't last long and they were soon carrying out acts for which answers and justice is STILL being sought, to this day.
Are you sure you are fully up to speed with the era?
This is not just about the DF who would have lost thousands of troops, it is about the Irish civilians who would have died as a result of the terrorism unleashed in the south.
Yes I am sure that both Lynch and Wilson knew exactly what would happen and the solution adopted was the least worst option. Sometimes there are no happy outcomes.
Wilson even investigated pulling ALL British troops out of NI. The conclusion -
The study concluded: "There are no direct reasons why the withdrawal of all service facilities would not be feasible."
They calculated that it would take three months to transfer all personnel and dependants, stores, fuel, ammunition, vehicles and equipment.
But, the study warned, funds would have to be provided to replicate some of the facilities in Britain and the pull-out would have to be cleared with Nato.
It added that such an operation would be both cumbersome and embarrassing and would inevitably aggravate the combustible situation in Northern Ireland.
The Top Secret report warned that, if the violence increased after a complete military withdrawal and civil order had collapsed, Britain would face heavy international criticism. In that eventuality, Britain would have to send the soldiers back in again.
Thatcher thought about it too and wasn't Dev offered unity as well?
Not sure what your point is after that.
Back on topic, MM was in Finland today. Most believe they will join NATO by the end of the summer. A total seachange there.
I guess Francie and the others will decry nasty NATO for expanding, making Finland join and decry its expansion, like the good Putin bots they are!
That's Finland's decision to make Mark.
The most recent poll here suggests you guys have an uphill battle to persuade the Irish electorate that it the right decision for us.
Best of luck convincing them if your strategy is to accuse them of being pro Putin or anti Western.
Maybe, given the numbers here against joining, it might fit MM better to be in Finland seeing how they solved their homelessness problem? Priorities and all that!
The point is that the British Army's mission (13K strong) in NI during the troubles was to stop a low level sectarian conflict becoming a full on civil war (eg Yugoslavia). You may believe that the DF could have done better but considering the entire DF size at this time was 8800, I doubt it.
The paper says that Ireland's defence force strength at the time was only 8,860 personnel, a number which included the air corps, navy, troops on UN duty, and back-up units. Excluding these elements there would not be more than 2,500 line troops available to be mustered, organised into units and trained preparatory to undertaking incursions," the document warns. In addition, the paper says their combat effectiveness would have been low and there were deficiencies "in almost every type of armament, ammunition and military equipment"
Also here is a report where Lynch considered an incursion of DF troops in the North which concluded
The armed opposition likely to be encountered by incursions into Northern Ireland is vastly superior in strength, organisation, combat training and equipment to those elements of the Defence Forces which could be mustered," army officers warned.
Jaysus, go back, find the thread I made the point in and read it.
I never advocated for the Irish DF's to defend the peace across the province, I said they should have gone into the Bogside to protect the people there, provoke a diplomatic incident and pressure/force the British to act.
The British did eventually act. but because we stood back, they thought they could solve the issue by subjugating nationalists and shoring up the sectarian bigoted state.
Yes, but it goes show big changes can come quick. We need to have a serious rethink about our defence and alliances with other nations. The usual cranks and moaners can GTF.
On homelessness, Finland has a property tax, something our boys don't support.... maybe your boys in West Belfast should change their tune on that little policy of theirs.
Best of luck changing people's minds here. The Richmond/Varadkar push seems to have failed.
Well we all know you wont ever change your mind regardless of the facts or events.
Mark my word, Ireland's neutrality is on its last legs and a new EU defence alliance will be the way to go.
It is time to join NATO. Neutrality served us very well, particularly as for decades post independence we were at more risk from the UK than any other power.
But the world is divided in a different way now and there are risks. As it stands we haven’t a hope of defending the country, we need to be in an alliance of countries whose values we broadly share. We can’t expect people we refuse to help to help us if we are ever attacked.
Heard it all before mark. You campaign away but when our 'leaders' seem to have failed so miserably to convince I'd wager it's a long way away. Meanwhile the current government can hardly dare to continue to cut the DF's could they, after all the bullshit and lip service to our defence. Could they?
How is it best way to go?
Would swiss type neutrality not be better,having every adult in country trained in arms and explosives etc etc and obligated to take part,would do much more to defend the country,than getting involved in what a child could preceive the eu defence will end up doing??
48-39 majority want to join NATO in this opinion poll. Wrong side of history again, are you?
I think that poll might have a few issues. ROFL
Nonetheless, the poll also illustrated confusion over what joining NATO or an EU-organized force might really mean. When asked whether “Ireland should drop its policy of neutrality,” 57 percent said no.
I still think 48% is a much better starting point than 30%, don't you?
Your poll is an outlier and has been discussed. Seems the question was misleading, which is why there is a huge contradiction. Safe to say that poll can be binned as a result.
Not without a referendum!
Not at all an outlier. More like a poll where things have been explained, a bit like the way you tell us that everyone will want a united Ireland once a plan is produced.
Nope, never said that either.
I know there will be some belligerent Unionists and bitter partitionists unhappy whatever way a UI works out.
For me without a doubt it is time to end our military neutrality. We are part of the EU and that is where our future lies so I think a good first step would be to end our military neutrality start to upgrade our military by improving defense spending from its current level of about 0.3% of gdp gradually until we get to about 1.5% of gdp and join the likely future EU defense force. NATO I am open to that but I think joining an EU defense force would be a good first step and we could then consider NATO down the road.
Is the idea of an EU force not to rival NATO?
No. NATO is not a purely Europe organization. It makes sense for the EU to have some sort of EU defense force that can react quickly to and deal with issues that are purely of concern to Europe.
NATO is an extension of the American empire, which has stagnated for the past 40 years and is showing signs of pending collapse similar to late 1980s Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact, with anti-NATO politicians such as Le Pen in France and Salvini/Meloni in Italy becoming more popular in their respective countries similar to how anti-Communist forces such as Solidarity in Poland became popular in the 1980s. And then you have a Gorbachev figure in Trump who wants to take the United States out of NATO, and he's likely to become US president again in 2024 because of Biden's incompetence and unpopularity. As a result, I don't see NATO lasting for much longer, despite what the United States is trying to do in Ukraine.
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