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Baptising children

pi_anon_argh

Long time poster going anon...

I just had a long discussion with my wife about baptising our children as Catholics. We never baptised the first (and Covid made it not an urgent matter), and now she is talking about baptising again with the second.

I am dead set against it. I was raised as a Catholic. I used to have a lot of faith until my mid-20s, mass every week, etc., but the various aspects eventually turned me off. The abuse scandals that constantly came out, along with gays going to hell, unequal treatment of women, etc. I'm an atheist now.

She was raised in more of a laidback Catholic family - mass not a weekly feature. She has never gone to mass since I've met her except for funerals and weddings, anniversary masses and Christmas mass with my parents. She says her faith doesn't require her to go to mass or to the church.

I don't want my children anywhere near the church. I didn't want to get married in a church, but relented when she invoked the memory of her deceased aunt who was a nun. I thought that my compromise there would be enough, but she saw it more as an acceptance of future baptisms. I felt like an arse lying to the priest and in front of the entire congregation about how much I love God and Jesus, and now she's asking me to do more of it.

I said that if we get them baptised, we're 100% committing to what we promise - mass every week, teaching them all about the bible at home - but she says she doesn't want that, just for it to be like 'how she grew up'. I don't understand that if mass or the church aren't part of her faith, then why does baptism need to be part of it. I don't want to be the parent having a big party for the communion and then never darkening the door of the church until confirmation time. I would loathe myself being that hypocritical.

I'm torn between sticking to my principles, and making my wife happy.

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[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899811#Comment_118899811

Thats exactly what I mean. I don't want them to count me as a member.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899765#Comment_118899765

🙄 I don't think I've read such rubbish in my life. Since when did non-Christians have to take part in Christian ceremonies to be able to "deal with" it. Given that this is Ireland, in 95% of schools they'll be sitting through daily Christian religious instruction. Then there's the priest visits, class masses, art=religious pictures, music=hymns, etc. etc..

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897324#Comment_118897324

What do you actually mean by the church counts you as a member? Apart from various reference in data and news articles referring to there being X number of Catholics in a country etc... I have never heard of the Catholic church or another for that mater using such figures for the purpose such as say church events and so on.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899275#Comment_118899275

Actually I'd say it's not a good deal at all. Childhood and youth is the time to learn about the adult world and your place in it. Like it or now you live in a part of the world with a Christian ethos and you owe it to your child to help them figure out how to deal with it, not run away every time there is a major Christian event in the offing, sooner or later they will have to learn to deal with it and learning those less early, while the world is more forgiving is a better move.

jaykay2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897585#Comment_118897585

Not yet, but imagine we will be in a similar boat with our two year old. Our plan is a trip to Disney World or Universal Studios to coincide with the Communions/Confirmations etc.

I think she will be getting the better deal to be honest!

looksee

Although of a non-religious family, my granddaughter made her first communion to be part of the class, but by confirmation she decided that she did not want to be confirmed. Her best friend was being confirmed and she went along as one of her invitees. The PP was inclined to make a fuss (about her attending while not being confirmed) but was sorted by the school principal and all was well. Her sister will have the same option, I suspect she will opt to be confirmed, to be like the rest of the class.

Wheety

I'm atheist and our 2 year old has not been baptised. She'll be going to a catholic school as we don't really have a choice around here unless we want to go for a drive every morning in rush hour traffic. The catholic school is just around the corner. and walking distance.

She'll miss out on communion and confirmation. I know her friends will be doing theirs and I imagine most of those parents won't be religious. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Anyone else been through that, where their kid's friends are all doing the communion/confirmation thing and their own kid isn't? Was it tough on your kid?

magicbastarder

they can claim i'm the risen jesus for all i care.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896834#Comment_118896834

I was also baptised 46 years ago. The church counts us both as members.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896617#Comment_118896617

Well, they can list their members at a certain number. I'm not sure why I should be listed as part of an organisation I don't wish to belong to.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118893695#Comment_118893695

listing you as baptised is just listing you as baptised. how long ago was that? you cannot seriously claim that an organisation which accepted you as a member 30 or 40 years ago still claims you as one. if you do - again, it's you who is placing more significance on that than possibly even the church is.

the previous 'countmeout' campaign didn't change that. it was just a symbolic gesture for people to say they were no longer catholic. it didn't actually change anything about their relationship with the RCC. i understand why many did it, but many people who did it seem to have misunderstood that it was just symbolic.

FWIW, i was baptised 46 years ago. if someone said to me that makes me a member of the RCC now i'd wonder if they were feeling OK.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118893527#Comment_118893527

It was an eye-opener for some people. If "holy men" were in some cases doing horrific things, and the "even holier men" the bishops were covering it up and lying about it... what else might they be lying about?

But in reality the RCC in Ireland was in serious decline well before this (about 20-30 years later than comparable Western countries). Vocations entered a death spiral in the early to mid 1970s - first nuns, which is why they're almost extinct today, but soon enough priests too. I remember weekly "prayers for vocations" in the early 1980s. A good number of priests started leaving in the 80s too. Family size went right down during the 1970s and 80s even though contraception was either illegal or hard to get (Hayes Conyngham Robinson the "Protestant" chemists were a better bet for pills or rubbers than FF-family owned Brady's on Dublin's SCR, for instance). Censorship tapered off and by the end of the 1980s was regarded as a joke and easily circumvented. We'd have got where we are now without the abuse scandals, and I sincerely wish they'd never happened, but they only slightly accelerated the decline of the RCC in Ireland which was inevitably going to happen anyway.

We just need to sort the schools and hospitals out. Nobody should have religion inflicted on them in either, or have to declare what their religion is or is not in order to access education or health services. It's the RCC's last stand here.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892513#Comment_118892513

It's as if the RCC believes that the word of a non-catholic is worthless! 😀

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118893123#Comment_118893123

Can you give us a concrete example of the church "using your membership"?

jaykay2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118893702#Comment_118893702

Really good point HerrKuehn. Expand that out to all 10,000 religions across the planet and even if one of them is somehow right, 99.999% off them are wrong. I don't believe any of them are right, but for arguments sake.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118893527#Comment_118893527

Em, I don't think that is how people come to that conclusion. For me it is just so obviously irrational. We know humans make up religions, most religious would agree that Scientology, Mormonism, John Frum Cult etc are all made up. These don't seem to have any trouble attracting followers, so therefore people have a tendency to follow made up religions. Of the main religions, with over a billion followers, one has Jesus as the son of god being the main point of the religion, the other one thinks he is just a prophet. So they can't both be right here. That means that a religion can grow to large numbers while being incorrect on the most important element. I just take it a step further, they are both nonsense.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118893322#Comment_118893322

Listing me as a baptised is listing me as a member.

pi_anon_argh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892163#Comment_118892163

On your latter point, I think that losing faith in the church is the start of a journey that often ends with losing faith in a god. Not that one directly implies the other - there's no 'suddenly', at least not in my case. It was many years after I disassociated from the church that I came to my current conclusion of atheism. I veer towards agnosticism at times, but I don't think there's any god in the way that religion models him/her.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118893216#Comment_118893216

The hatred is understandable, the conclusions are not - "I hate the Catholic church, so God must not exist and I'm an atheist"

ahappychappy

Sorry @magicbastarder I misspoke- it was indeed the Census as you corrected.

In relation to the school issue - I think the issue is a little clouded by schools who are multi-denomination in name but not in practice. When we were looking at secondary schools a few years ago we visited a multi-denomination school - all bells and whistles on website saying how they welcomed all religions and non.

We were then told about their weekly assembly when weekly academic/behaviour awards were given out - in a prayer service. When my son queried why was the academic awards been given during a religious context he was told he could sit quietly and meditate. Surrounded by crucifixes, bibles etc. When he went on to question how they consider them multi-denominational we were met with a comment about how ET kids were outspoken! We left and did complain that their website was misleading - but of course got no response. Because obviously they were unable to handle the fact that a pre teen called out their hypocrisy - in a more polite way than I wanted :-)

@Eircom_Sucks most schools have evolved to realise they cant discriminate against different religions - sometimes it comes from the Parents or the board. My understanding this is in line with a UN ruling on the lack of choice of education for non catholic families which doesnt mandate this but it looks likely to come down the line at some stage.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118893123#Comment_118893123

they don't list you as a member, they list you as baptised. if you can tell me of an example where your baptismal record has any actual influence, i'll concede, but your baptismal record is as meaningless or meaningful as you want it to be.

Hotblack Desiato

The unprincipled go with the flow for an easy life, they don't care that they make life more difficult for people who have principles. Largely because of this, politicians are still far too spineless to stand up to the church with regard to state-funded health and education services which are still bizarrely controlled by the church.

As for the "I know many good men who are priests", if they are such good men how can they in conscience remain in that organisation? It's not going to change.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118878385#Comment_118878385

The hatred of the Catholic church might come from the systematic cover up of the sexual abuse of children over a long period of time. Cardinal Sean Brady wasn't "the designated person" to go to the police as a younger priest when he was swearing children to silence. I think the hatred is fairly understandable.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892366#Comment_118892366

I don't put any power in baptism at all. But the church have me down as a member and they will not remove me. So no I don't put any power in it at all, but the church do and they use my membership.

looksee

My family's view was "get the child baptised and let her opt out later if she wants", which is backwards in my opinion.

That's insurance policy religion, there's a lot of it about.

The Mighty Quinn

I was raised catholic, brought to mass weekly, my parents still go. Up until late teens I had a strong faith, until I started questioning the world for myself. I'm now most certainly atheist and like you weirdly against religion. That said, I know a few priests, they are good men and I wish them no ill. I respect them.

My wife's background, she was baptised, went to mass on occasion only as she grew up, a rarity. She doesn't do religion now, but on occasion still says "prayers to god", usually when something is wrong to be honest. I got married at a wedding venue, not a church. I didn't want my children baptised. She did. For social reasons, not religious.

I was dead set against 'going along with it because its the done thing', I was of the view that if they want to attend mass when older, by all means let them. My family's view was "get the child baptised and let her opt out later if she wants", which is backwards in my opinion. Anyway, my wife went and organised it anyway, child was baptised. I still wish it wasn't so, but it is, I've moved on.

I got my own back, ticked non-religious for us all on the census form mwah haha 😂

[Deleted User]

Why do something you don't believe in to keep others happy? Talk about bring a doormat.

How many people who get their children baptised would accept discrimination of women and homosexuals in their daily lives, but are then happy to enrol their kids into an organisation that specifically disallows women from becoming priests and openly disapproves of homosexuality?

The level of hypocrisy in parents who don't practice catholicism but go along with the wedding and baptism in the church is off the charts. If you voted to repeal the 8th, voted to legalise same set marriage then you should be absolutely nowhere near baptising your child if you had any level of self respect and belief in your own values.

looksee

Perigrinus - fair enough, I was not aware of the rule change, I was not taking that much notice of church rules. I was aware of the infallibility of church rules and the church's ability to change them when it suited. So many 'essential' details changed - the ability to go to Mass on Saturday for Sunday, the removal of obligation to many saints' days, the removal of limbo, the fact of girls being allowed onto the altar, the need for the PP to turn up at social meetings to make sure nothing untoward happened, and many more - that you would lose track of what was a rule and what was not.

JimmyVik

We are Athiests.

Got ours Chirstened and communion.

They never went to mass before of after either event. Apart from to weddings and if they were ever brought to mass in school.

Neither of us believe we are going to hell or anything or that we will sprout flames out of our heads walking into a church.

Havent seen any downsides or heads turning 360 degrees in the kids yet.

Keeps everyone happy. Those who dont believe arent bother3ed, apart form the odd athiest evangelist in our circle, but these people are worse than priests for foisting their own beliefs on others, so we just not and agree with them and let them on.

Nothing worse than an Athiest evangelist to be fair.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118892486#Comment_118892486

The rules changed in 1983 (and in some countries earlier). Since 1983 the rule everywhere has been that the Catholic spouse has to make the promise, and the non-Catholic spouse has to be informed about it. Neither spouse normally has to sign anything; the priest signs a statement for the diocesan records confirming that the Catholic spouse has made the promise, and the other spouse has been informed.