If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
Yes, let's lay the nonsense to rest.
It is a lot lot more than a cultural and economic union.
“shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States”
right so as long as we maintain our policy of neutrality, we will not be obligated to provide military aid.
Pretty cut and dried for a democratic institution.
Well An Taoiseach did recently say we may have to look at having a citizens assembly to look at our military neutrality and I think that would be a good step to take. He has also been very clear in stating we are only neutral militarily that we are not neutral in a general sense just militarily.
Ending military neutrality does not mean we have to join NATO either. Personally given our future clearly lies as a member of the EU I think we should end our military neutrality and join the new EU defense force that is likely to come into being in some form in the coming years. We also I think need to up our defense spending from its current paltry level of 0.3% of gdp until we get to about 1.5% where we were during the early 1980's. We can work on all that gradually and in time see if NATO membership does or does not make sense down the road.
I have no doubt the campaigning will go on.
You mean intentions that's you would have ignored anyway?
You are quite happy to have intentions blocked by the British.
Anyway, how would getting rid of the Triple Lock usher in a new era of colonialism?
Finland getting on with it...
Finnish neutrality never sat well with them. It was never really their sovereign choice. The looming presence of the Soviet Union kept them out of the EU and there was a large degree of covert Soviet interference in the Finnish political system until the end of the Cold War. Books critical of the USSR were banned and Soviet diplomats tried to sway parties towards their favoured leaders in Helsinki.
Those memories have not gone away.
More power to the Finns. They are natural NATO members and will be outsized contributers to the alliance.
It's not happening mark. Coveney seems happy with the TL
And the people seem happy to stay out of NATO.
Neale and Leo can pull in the horns for another while.
Why do you only agree with polls that share your opinion?
As you posted on another thread (UI) this morning - Polls and specific political party opinion will matter not a damn.
I don't.
My point there (in UI) thread was that polls will not matter to the British when making a call on a Border Poll.
The propaganda war has already begun here and not sure anyone is taking it seriously. Just yesterday the Russian Embassy said they had "also expressed to the Department of Foreign Affairs that Russian people living in Ireland feel unsafe and discriminated against as a result of the war in Ukraine." This is how it starts, building up the story where poor citizens are mistreated in another country.
The least this country should do, would be to invest in the defence forces and forget the silly thought that no-one wants to attack Ireland. The old "why would they attack, what would they gain" reasoning has proved to be useless in so many countries in history. Relying on the UK or EU to come for the rescue is not only selfish but strange coming from a country that has traditionally been so proud of their hard-fought independence. If a nation cannot defend its independence, is it truly independent at all? If a country is unwilling to defend its territory, what does that say of that particular nation? That said, I think joining the NATO would be a smart thing to do, especially for a small nation, but that would also mean that there needs to be a considerable effort to update equipment, training and invest in modern defence technology in general.
Doesn't look that way to me - from earlier in the (UI) discussion this morning
It's 'good polls/bad polls' syndrome again.
These polls are irrelevant until a plan/white paper for a UI is presented. Support for a UI is higher than it was for Scottish independence when their referendum was granted. And support for the union much lower too.
So the poll which is against your views (where a majority in Ireland are against UI) is irrelevant but a poll on Nato which you agree on is the definitive last word. Going on your UI position, maybe a position on Nato should wait until a concrete government proposal is made and until then any poll on Nato membership is irrelevant
Yes Bob...a poll on a UI without a plan is irrelevant.
I did not dispute the findings of that poll, just the relevancy of it. I think the number in favour without a plan/white paper to be hugely encouraging actuall and I thought the same of the last one too.
The margin in this NATO poll is significant too, being so large I don't think there is much doubt about the feelings of the people.
You didnt answer the question.
How would getting rid of the Triple Lock usher in a new era of Imperialism and Colonialism?
You and Coveney supporting a British veto on Irish military action are certainly very strange bedfellows. Needs must, I suppose, in the ever-ending contortionist support of all things Sinn Fein.
Ah yes living in the past,dont forget the vikings while your at it,they are still barbarians to this day,right
You really hate the west and everything it stands for,dont you
We see better living under Putins regime
Oh that is funny. Always amusing to see hypocrisy exposed so clearly.
No, I think the veto should have gone years ago.
Me and Coveney supporting the idea that giving a government carte blanche to go where it likes militarily is a recipe for disaster. Just because the Russians can do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea blanch.
Anyway, doesn't seem like it is gonna happen.
You support the Triple Lock which de jure gives the UK government a veto over Irish military action. That can't be explained or waved away, no matter how you try.
I am in favour of the Triple Lock as it is the best way(not perfect by any means) to proceed.
You and mark and nobody else AFAICS hypothetically want to give the Shinners the power to send the army into NI militarily, which is the funniest faux pas on this site for a long long time.
I am happy to give them that power in Sinn Fein get into government. I don't think that they are that stupid (then again, you know them better and may believe they are that stupid) and even if they were, we would see a military coup as the defence forces would refuse, so I see no problem with removing the Triple Lock.
Still not able to explain your wanting to give the Queen a veto on the use of Irish troops. Never saw you as a monarchist, but as I said, anything in the service of Sinn Fein.
Gets better - you would risk a military coup now. 😁😁
I live in the real world blanch, not one like yours, peopled with Brit hating figments of your imagination and rabid shinners under the bed.
Practically, operating under the aegis of the UN, is the best way forward in my opinion.
The real world????
In the real world, you are de jure handing the UK a veto on the use of the Irish military, end of, no questions. No true Irish person could agree to that.
You question my position on the hypothesis that the Irish people are stupid enough to elect a majority Sinn Fein government, and that Sinn Fein government is then stupid enough to order a military invasion of the North and that the army are stupid enough to follow that order. Well, if that is the real world, it is a very strange real world you live in.
Hold on a minute...now you are saying that no Irish person would want others to decide how the army is used - what about all of those who want us to join military alliance like NATO...do you think our lads and lassies in the DF's will get their pick of spots to be deployed to?
😁 You are pedaling so hard here you are losing control of the bike.
Oh dearie me, you are so mixed up. I said no Irish person would want to give the UK a veto on the use of our military forces, except you, of course. That stands, and you haven't been able to explain it away.
Now, you want to twist my words into something else. Joining NATO does not commit our army to any particular operation. For example, if both ourselves and Ukraine were in NATO, we could contribute military equipment, military intelligence, air support (if we had any of these) and not necessarily troops on the ground. It shows how little you know.
Explain what away?
I know the top 5 in the UN have a veto.
I STILL think it is the best way for us to operate as the UN's goals are broadly in line with our own from a peacekeeping perspective.
You are the one that seems to have issue with the UK.
So you finally accept that you want the UK to have a veto on the use of Irish military forces. At least we have that clear.
I'll just leave it there, it is explanation enough in itself.
I 'accept' that any one of the top 5 has a veto at the UN. I also accept that the notion we could send forces wherever we like, militarily or in a peacekeeping role would be unworkable and they would probably end up staying in barracks 99.9% of the time.
It's a compromise I am willing to make.
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