Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Retaining and accessing mobile phone metadata breaches EU law

  • 05-04-2022 2:18pm
    #1
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭


    Europe's top court confirmed this morning that Ireland’s system of retaining and accessing mobile phone metadata breaches EU law.

    Ok, But what I don't understand how a vicious killer who was convicted using this technology suddenly becomes less of a killer and is less dangerous on the streets if let out because the EU has passed this ruling.



«13

Comments

  • #2
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    The evidence should have been inadmissible. It's got nothing to do with with how dangerous the killer is. It's all about what you can prove in a court of law. People get away with crimes all the time as there isn't enough evidence to convince a jury of guilt.



  • #3
    MarkEadie
    Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭MarkEadie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883984#Comment_118883984

    Agreed. Dwyer will probably get released and a nice sum of compensation.



  • #4
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    I hadn't thought about compensation, just that he may get released. He'll have to undergo a retrial though, and won't just be let out on the basis of this finding on the mobile data.



  • #5
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,871 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    The murder took place in 2012. Government knew in 2012 that they needed to bring in legislation on this matter. They didn't & they still haven't. If government brought in legislation then Gardai could have used phone records.



  • #6
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884054#Comment_118884054

    Couldn't have made the legislation retroactive though, they would have had to do it before the murder.

    Anyway, he will get a retrial I suspect and we will see. It is an unfortunate downside of behaving under the rule of law, but it is dwarfed by the upsides.



  • Advertisement
  • #7
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    But surely if the prosecution proves beyond reasonable doubt that the circumstances in which the identification was made has produced a reliable identification, this EU ruling should hold no water. Surely this is the common sense approach. Otherwise we have people whom we all know to be vicious and dangerous murderers and are a danger to us all are roaming the streets.



  • #8
    CarProblem
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭CarProblem


    "But surely if the prosecution proves beyond reasonable doubt" - but what if that proof was based on evidence that is now inadmissible? I don't know how strong the prosecution case is without this evidence however - I'm not qualified to comment

    "But what I don't understand how a vicious killer who was convicted using this technology suddenly becomes less of a killer and is less dangerous on the streets if let out because the EU has passed this ruling"

    I often read threads on here and think "if I'm ever on trial for a crime I didn't commit those people could be on the jury". Yet again I'm thinking that and it's a terrifying vista



  • #9
    Fandymo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884121#Comment_118884121

    The law is the law. Dwyer, and likely others, will get out and probably get a nice chunk of money from the taxpayer due to our Government being incompetent. Will anyone get the blame for not implementing the law? Fcuk no, we don't do consequences in Ireland.



  • #10
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,076 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Will there be a liability for the phone companies for retaining this data and having it available or is it a fact that the government insisted on it being kept despite it being known to be not compatible with EU law?



  • #11
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884121#Comment_118884121

    You can't use illegally gathered data in a prosecution. Throwing the rules out cause you "know" you get the right guy is the stuff of authoritarian dreams.

    They can go for a retrial and do it without this evidence (Though it will be tough to get a "fair" trial).



  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Fandymo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884351#Comment_118884351

    It'll also be next to near impossible to place Dwyer, in the places they need to prove him to have been, without the data.



  • #13
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,547 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Even courts in the US lean towards the defendant in these case law examples. LEOs cannot just ignore the peoples constitutional rights, even the suspects, even when they were right to be suspicious.



  • #14
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    According to some legal expert on Six One...

    Even if the phone data was obtained illegally, the judge can still allow it...if that's correct that's kinda scary



  • #15
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    So does this mean that illegal activity on the web and peoples phones can’t be used to prosecute??


    Surely not, hopefully???



  • #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    To best of my knowledge,there no evidence exists elaine ohara was even murdered


    This case never sat easy with me,to hold highly questionable fetishs and what 2 consenting adults do in a bedroom,


    This shouldnt be used as a reason to imprison someone either...ive no doubt dwyer is a sketchy individual,but the lack of any physical evidence reflects poorly upon justice system imo



  • #17
    whiterebel
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    There definitely was something when this case was presented, that the Irish court could chose to ignore the ruling and uphold the guilty verdict.



  • #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886308#Comment_118886308

    Would he not just appeal it to european courts....potentially causing an issue of the supreme court being over ruled and having to back down??



  • #19
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,547 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886210#Comment_118886210

    Depends on Irelands Jurisprudence and EU's. EU says they cannot use it, so it's a matter of whether it's a supremacy clause issue or if its a case of two sovereignties (evidence can't be used to convict EU crimes, may be used possibly to convict Irish crimes, if Irelands courts allow it)



  • #20
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884008#Comment_118884008

    Unlikely. Plenty of other evidence and also there's a history of "if you didn't challenge it at the trial, feck off" rulings.

    The other evidence is still legit even if they figured out it was him and then obtained said evidence based on the phones. Its not the same as the seeing something on an illegal search connection.



  • #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Illegally gathered evidence can still be admissible, depending on certain things. DPP v JC



  • Advertisement
  • #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886467#Comment_118886467

    What other evidence is there?


    Theres not even conclusive evidence,this poor woman was murdered



  • #23
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,150 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Could Joe O'Reilly also go down this route?



  • #24
    lukewarm06
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭lukewarm06


    The issue now is being granted the retrial...if he gets that I think he will be laughing ...

    The conviction was always shaky,I think it was Pathologist Marie Cassidy who said at the time she was shocked he was found guilty given the evidence presented which was quite something.....

    There was no DNA,forensics,murder weapon,I dont think they could prove from her remains she was murdered.....



  • #25
    Firminos
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Firminos


    Could he actually be acquitted?



  • #26
    Firminos
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Firminos


    Would be insane



  • #27
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,576 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886549#Comment_118886549

    You keep saying that graham.



  • #28
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,021 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886434#Comment_118886434

    The ECJ has not said that Ireland cannot use the phone data; just that we should not have retained it. Given that it was retained, albeit improperly, the question of whether it can be used in evidence is a question of Irish law, not EU law, and the ECJ has not said anything about this. The case goes back to the Irish courts to determine this.

    The general rule in Irish law is that illegally/unconstitutionally obtained evidence cannot be admitted in court, but there are numerous exceptions to this rule. It remains to be seen whether the court will find that this case comes within one of the established exceptions or will craft a new exception that covers this case. If I were Dwyer I would not be booking any holidays abroad just yet.



  • #29
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,102 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886294#Comment_118886294

    or perhaps the lack of physical evidence reflects well on his ability to hide it?



  • #30
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    No evidence how she died. The only conclusive evidence presented was from the phone data was that the master phone and graham dwyers phone were pinging the same telephone masts at the same times and from the same direction about the times when Elaine O Hara disappeared.



  • Advertisement
  • #31
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886558#Comment_118886558

    No. The mobile data was collected almost immediately



Advertisement