If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
Maybe you could ask him why a country that didn't feel there was a threat increased it's defence forces hugely and trained them to repel an invasion as well as the other questions asked about watching the coast, the public info campaigns, the Dáil discussions and the warning from British Intelligence about Operation Green?
A whale only gets harpooned when it comes up to blow.
blanch, we were discussing the government and people of Ireland of the time not me.
It matters not one whit what I believe.
I am sure Dev treated the info with the same healthy skepticism as I would anything emanating from British intelligence but the fact is they were under threat and did not have the benefit of hindsight that you forgot you were using. It's probably why contemporary accounts reflect that, why precautions were taken,(blackouts, public information campaigns) the coasts watched and why it was discussed in the Dáil.
You attempts to turn facts into something to ridicule me are just as fabulous as they are pathetic.
So now Francie is a believer in British intelligence. Who would have ever thought we would see this day?
Only a few months ago, you were joining in the Sinn Fein chorus about reliance on British intelligence to expel Russian diplomats. If they were so correct in 1940, how were they so wrong in 2021?
Francie, you are a complete charlatan. This is so funny.
Oh dear, woefully underinformed.
In 1940 British intelligence informed their Irish counterparts of the existence of Operation Green, a detailed strategy drawn up by the German high command for the invasion of Ireland. The Irish began immediately to work with the British on their own secret military plans. This collaboration, codenamed Plan W, was a blueprint for the joint defence of Ireland in the event of a Nazi attack on the island.
De Valera’s darkest hour: How Ireland dealt with the Nazi threat (irishtimes.com)
No Francie, that threat never existed. It just didn't. There was nobody worrying about the Germans reducing Ireland to rubble during WW", bar a few hysterics.
Hndsight again. 🙄
I had forgotten that Francie's Triple Lock Constitutional initiative would give the Brits a veto on the use of the Irish Army. What a faux-pas!!!!!
Francie believes that if Ireland had entered the war, the Luftwaffe would have flown over the UK, evading UK air defences and ignoring the opportunities of bombing major cities in the UK and bombed Scotstown and Clontibret instead, reducing Ireland to a rubble.
It is crazy insane stuff.
The closest similarity in recent times with Francie's crazy insane idea of an aid mission to the North is actions of the Russians in annexing Crimea and sending an "aid mission" to de-nazify Ukraine and help ethnic Russians.
That is the company his idea keeps, so enough said about it.
Fairly conclusive.
Russia and China (not UK!) are of course the major problem with the "Triple lock" idea. They are 2 pillars of the UN, permanent Security Council members and guardians + watchmen of the post WW2 peace. Nothing can really happen at a UN level if one or other of them block it. The mask is fully off Russia now, they've gone rogue, and it is slipping very badly on China too (IMO it's highly likely they blessed the invasion of Ukraine and told Putin he had their full support). Problems this could cause Ireland in a future crisis were the lock to be enshrined in the Constitution are quite obvious.
When you are explaining you are losing heavily.
You want to make what I suggested legal, you also want to enable a future government to invade aggressively if they so wish. Consequences mark, you didn't think them through. Under your utopia Russia would be entirely within it's rights to do what it is doing. The old days of imperialism and colonialism which we know you have very few problems with. Didn't realise you wanted them back.
I have issues, as stated, with the Triple Lock, but as I said repeatedly, it is the best thing we have got.
YOU want to make that legal.
You think repeating this is some kind of 'Get out of Jail Free' card, but it isn't. In fact, your using it makes you look utterly foolish and far removed from reality.
I am not advocating Ireland invade a NATO country, you are.
I am advocating getting rid of the Triple Lock, where we the Irish state get to decide our own foreign and defence policy. You seem to be OK with a British veto on the UNSC but to be honest, you just want to argue for the sake of it.
You have two competing arguments that together don't make any sense at all. Sure, you are advocating that when it suits that Ireland ignores and breaks its own laws.... yet you want to KEEP that law.
I was fully aware that an aid mission was counter to UN rules and made the point that even though it was legally wrong, sometimes that should not matter if it is morally the right thing to do.
I thought it was a 'peacekeeping' mission Francie, not an aid mission. I guess the Putin bot in you realise now how stupid it would be to use the word peacekeeping when invading another country.
Anyway, again, within the same post you contradict yourself. If the case arises in your opinion, Ireland should do the 'right thing' regardless of any domestic or international law. So again, why have such a law on the books?
YOU want to make that legal. 😁😁
Well done mark on advocating for a situation were no UN rules would be broken. It is brilliant how you have undermined your own position.
"An aid mission" with armed Irish defence force personnel crossing the border of a soverign NATO country.
And if that wasn't bad enough, the state should have ignored and broken its own laws.... hilarious Francie, a great laugh you are this Saturday morning.
No I argued that we should have sent an aid mission to the north and ignored the law.
You want to make the possibility of that legal.
Wasnt it you who argued for invasion in the North while also keeping the Triple Lock Francie?
Tell us, who would the Brits on the UN Security Council reacted to our plan?
Yes and admitted I was wrong.
Are you wrong here too?
😁 google meine freunde >>>>>>>
Yes and admitted I was wrong. Something others find difficult.
You want a situation were a future Irish government is not constrained and can legally send troops where they wish.
That is possible under your scheme.
Nothing more to be said really.
Who was the threat from? After all, you did say Ireland could have been destroyed if they entered the war.
It's clear he doesn't have a notion at all.
Earlier on in the thread, he was banging on that Neutrality was enshrined in the Constitution, when of course it's not....
Hang on, that is your plan.
Having the right to do so does not mean one advocate doing it.
You seem to argue that Ireland should have invaded the North back in the 1970's while at the same time saying the UN is paramount and we cannot let go of the Triple Lock, which means the Brits have a veto over defence policy. You are all over the shop Francie.
You wont even say if you want to get rid of the Triple Lock!
Yes a deal was make in the early 90's to get Ukraine to give up the nuclear weapons left over form the old Soviet/Russian empire days in return for security guarantees from both the US and Russia. The so called 1994 Budapest Memorandum has proved to not be worth the paper it was written on from Ukraine's standpoint. So there is no question they will be look for security guarantees that they feel are cast iron this time
Dear lord, is your need to object to everything I say that bad that you need to embarrass yourself?
'No known threat to Ireland from joining the war?' 😁😁
FFS blanch, British invasion was even discussed in the Dáil. Away and do some research.
So there was no known threat to Ireland from joining the war. It was purely about chickening out and not standing up to the Nazis.
As you say yourself, nobody knew how the war would proceed, which means you think De Valera was making an each-way bet for Ireland to thrive even if the Nazis won the war. I have accused him of running away, you are accusing him of worse, of being prepared for a Nazi victory.
Remember, by the early 1940s everyone knew about Nazi atrocities and we stood idly by. History repeated itself last year when everyone knew about Russian atrocities and certain posters and political parties wanted Ireland to stand idly by again.
A speculative plan that nobody knew about, was never brought to Churchill as a proposal or for information, and was only discovered years later was somehow a known threat at the time to De Valera?
For a poster whose credibility is in tatters, you sure seek ways to make those pieces smaller.
Was a plan made = yes.
Nobody knew if it was speculative or unrealistic. The threat was there, in the language of Churchill too.
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