Can you enlighten us as to this hidden agenda and the real reason they are being brought here? You seem to have figured it all out so I'd love to hear an explanation of what's really going on. Cheers
I know that’s what you meant, and it still makes no sense whatsoever as they wouldn’t be here were their homes not being destroyed. They’re making the best of what is for them a bad situation. While they’re here, they will face accusations that they’re only here to take advantage of our generous welfare, which for a single person you’re right, I think it’s about €200 a week, but they’re also bringing their children, and they are as you point out, entitled to apply for the same supports as anyone else in their position who is Irish.
The idea is that you’re blaming people who are already in dire circumstances, for making your life harder in that you could afford a decent standard of living if they were denied any standard of living. Some countries work like that, Ireland doesn’t, and it never has, and lucky for you and yours it never will, whatever about the idea that people who are not as fortunate as you have any responsibility to see that you have a standard of living equitable to the people who are in a social class above you again, to their own detriment.
How do you possibly see that working, other than widening a wealth gap which has only been getting wider in the last few decades? What you’re insisting should happen, has been happening for decades, and that’s why you’re in the position you’re in, whereas if we had truly gone all-in on your idea, you’d be among the people who you’re now claiming are responsible for your not having a better standard of living.
Ireland has more than enough resources to cater for itself with many of the middle class also receiving some form of welfare support from the State, multiples of what they will ever contribute to the State in financial terms over the course of their lifetimes. It’s a feature of a functional economy, not a bug, as opposed to the unintended consequences of how you’re suggesting the State should expend more of it’s resources enabling you to have a better standard of living, at the expense of everyone in Irish society, having a better standard of living.
If the whole word took that attitude then we'd basically see mass genocide and starvation in many places on Earth.
'Bringing refugees to Ireland makes little practical sense, because everything costs more here.'
Unless of course, it's not all really about helping refugees....
We can be practical and realistic about our commitments to taking in refugees. Anyway, it would be more cost effective, and likely far more efficient, to provide funding to all the Eastern European countries like Poland, Estonia, etc to take in these refugees, and return them when the war is over. These countries have plenty of land to house refugees (and a throwback to building those huge Soviet era apartment blocks), and their economies/standards of living which would allow investment to go further in helping the refugees, all the while helping their own countries to expand economically.
Bringing refugees to Ireland makes little practical sense, because everything costs more here.
I mean 200 a week along with other welfare and some form of accommodation Vs going back to a destroyed country. I can easily see why they'd stay even if life here is crap. I also really disagree we have the resources to support everyone (even if it was managed perfectly).
Also if you're saying asylum seekers, refugees, people on lowest rungs of socioeconomic classes have no responsibility to middle class, then why do middle class have responsibility for them. Should just be told go on the own like we are at that point and not given very generous welfare supports.
I really don't care if it's a grim reflection on us. We shouldn't be hurting ourselves as a country in order to help others we have no actual attachment too. If you can't look after your own, you shouldn't be splitting resources even more. Its not like other countries haven't closed doors too. Denmark had closed to refugees pretty much pre this Ukraine situation. They were like no, we've too much and can't accommodate more. We need to be doing that. UK and US aren't taking a huge amount either numbers wise in comparison to us. We're the fools getting hit harder due to our made up GDP figures.
Still manually trawling?
Great to see that this lady is finding her feet. This still doesn’t address the concerns about a potential 200K population increase. Still advocating for no upper bound?
Like most who come here
RTE news : 'I don't want to be a refugee, I want to work'
Sorry, 590 was the scan price not the machine…. :)
I don’t mean to pry and I don’t need to know the details, but is that 590 EURO? Even in Sterling it seems cheap. I dunno, maybe missing a zero on the end? I guess I just expected if the point was that the public coffers are being gouged, €590 isn’t going to get anyone fired up in outrage 😳
Most 'middle class' people have private medical insurance
Last scan I had I had to wait one year and three months for…. My GP kicked up murder, I was eventually sent private with state paying to charter medical in Smithfield. They’d invoice the Mater about 590 I’m told, because the waiting lists due to demand in the Mater we’re so chronic..
so overpopulation and the drivers of that are quite responsible for Irish taxpayers potentially having their damn wellbeing and lives compromised because they can’t get the diagnostic scans they / we need in time..
scan was all good, but I had to get that info off my GP as opposed to being called for a consultation….
had to chase up my scan, and the results too… no consultation scheduled barring the yearly one and if they can’t be trusted to get me a scan they sure couldn’t be trusted to get me results… back to GP for them too.
middle class people don’t want a higher standard of living… they want a responsible and fair society… that those who pay in can access the services, their / our services and get priority as an Irish citizen and bang for their buck to boot.
As much as I feel a definite amount of contempt for Justice for both the lack of deportations, the failure to reinforce our immigration laws, and also the failure to fine employers engaged in enabling illegal immigrants to live here... while all that.. there have been some deportations in the past. Some. Not close to the numbers known and identified, but some have been kicked out. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find them returning later though, and slipping into the cracks..
There's going to be plenty of bogus carryons going on. Ukraine is rife with scams of all sorts.. that's going to be transferred over here. Ireland is going to change drastically over the next few years...
Interesting times.
I'm among those working class that's getting saddled left right and centre, but, we'll be alright comparatively. Can you not see how complaining about the price of diesel and creche fee for us versus losing everything you have, your home, your job family and essentially your life are not comparable? Should we just close the door of the Inn and say, sorry lads, we have our own problems here creche fee's are on the way up again. Stay in Poland or die in Ukraine, but we have our own problems.
We like to bask in the shyte about how friendly and welcoming the irish are. And the reality is, we are, thousands of units of accommodation has been offered up, and I as one of the saddled tax payers am willing to pay the price of the extra burden some may feel they will place on us, but fcuk me, that shrinks in comparison to the horrifying ordeal these people have had to live through. If we can't help these people, and are happy to let other nations, other taxpayers in less well off countries do it,I think its a pretty grim reflection on us
How will they be better off on welfare here when you’ve already argued that according to you at least, we don’t have the resources to support everyone? We do btw, it’s simply a fact that those resources are being managed irresponsibly by our own in favour of themselves.
Don’t make me pull out the CSO figures again, but there is a considerable difference between how people manage their own resources, and how Government manages the States resources. Government are not responsible for people wishing to have it all and incurring enormous personal debt.
Asylum seekers, refugees, immigrants, and Irish people on the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder, are not responsible for the people in the middle classes aspirations of a higher standard of living for themselves.
It really would be naive to think anyone owes anyone else a dig out, people do it for their own personal reasons, generally for charitable purposes with no expectation of a return on their investment in other people.
This…
none of the GPs in the two practices near me take on new patients… quite rightly as oversubscribed, my practice had 4 doctors now 6 doctors, the other 3… you move here from Galway say, you haven’t a hope, impact to current patients you can wait 5-6 days for an appointment.
All those other huge expenses and quality of life blockades put up by society and influenced for the most part by overpopulation…through rapid and rampant immigration..
our population growth is expected to peak at 5.83 million but they were pre pandemic numbers in about 45 years time…
Absolutely. Our hospitals and nursing homes and health centres would fall apart without migrant workers. They contribute hugely and are not a burden
Up to the late ‘90s / early 00s. Likely no worse than it is today.
I mean it's not really Jenny and her 7 kids in Clondalkin, it's people who are working day in and day out and paying taxes getting fecked here.
Between rent or buying a house, bills increasing, creche costs if you have kids, hospital waiting lists (even if you have health insurance at this stage), lack of GPs, lack of school places, lack of public transport etc. There isn't enough resources for our existing population here with the taxes we pay (a lot of this is down to serious mismanagement by the government of course). Adding 200k extra people isn't just fecking the people who don't want to work in this country, it fecks everyone unless you're well off.
I also think it's naive to think these people will go home. Some will but this will drag on and Ukraine will need to be rebuilt, a lot of them will be better off on welfare here than they are going home and trying to rebuild things. This isn't some short term pain and we move on. This is going to hurt people here for a long time.
In the 50s? Yep probably worked just fine.
Did Ireland not have a functioning health service before migrants arrived. All those hospitals run by nuns, staffed by Irish nurses. Seems to me it was better than it is today, it was coping just fine, thank you very much.
Migrant workers keep them going ? Ok, great that you’ve a more insightful experience than I did. Thanks :)
Noone said they are perfect but migrant workers keep them going so you cant blame immigrants for the poor health service. But thats you in general - something is bad so its all the fault of immigrants.
That's the thing though. 10k is manageable. 200k is 4% of the existing population. That's a radical demographic change by any definition. They need a plan and they need to publish it ASAP.
What this most recent of exchanges has proven to me is that arguing the toss back-and-forth on this forum is futile. By the time people start articulating their views here, they are so entrenched that even considering another perspective is beyond the pale. We have posters advocating for no upper bounds, others who either cannot or will not acknowledge the extraordinary numbers involved, and a final cohort who are itching to scream 'xenophobe', 'classist', even 'homophobe' gets a mention.
I have immense sympathy for people desperately fleeing Ukraine. However, we cannot and should not accept an infinite number of refugees. From a personal and perhaps selfish perspective, I worry about my wife who will give birth to our third child later this year. Will her care be compromised? Will my older children have their education disrupted in an already over-stretched system? Will an elderly relative, struggling with cognitive decline, have even more issues accessing limited services? Will my brother and sister, both of whom have young families, ever be able to secure a mortgage and a permanent home?
A 200K population increase will impact every facet of life in this country. To deny this is either willful ignorance, or to be so well insulated, that it scarcely affects you. I suspect the latter is in play with some of the responses here.
Temporary accommodation in hotels but not sustainable for any extended period. Too expensive in many cases for anything longer than a few weeks and that’s only for the first arrivals.
I suspect a well targetted FOI request would get you the relevent plans. They well be already in the public domain, just Journalism is so poor here though.
There must be good planning as 10 000 refugees in already and no tent cities
I’m talking about logistics, you didn’t mention that. There is no plan. We need details and figures.
Number 1, ourselves.
Who exactly does this relate to?
Well explain why they should not be here for their own benefit then? That's what you said.
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