If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
Yes, because you never change your mind even if the facts change, good ol Francie will keep his mind and opinion firmly closed. Like any good zealot.
Perhaps it is fear but I wouldn't call it cowardice. Ireland's focus for the next 500 years is survival and to maintain as much sovereignty as possible while ensuring the prosperity and living standards of it's population. That will be a monumental task to pull off. If you think joining NATO will help in this takes then fair enough but I'm not sure I think it will help. For the time being, doing nothing seems to be the most prudent course, being accused of cowardice is a small price to pay. Let's not forget Ireland is not a strategic target......yet
That's a reason to mistrust NATO?
Desperate.
**** hell, that is desperate.
These are the people who will sit around a table at NATO (weilding huge influence) and send people to die in wars and conflict zones.
If you trust them, good luck to you.
What facts have changed for us mark?
Here is a map showing ongoing armed conflicts and wars in the world.
Holy mother of god. this is real isolationist gumph you're coming out with here. Don't trust NATO because the chancellor of one member state (not even the PM or defence minister, the **** minister for bean counting) is also the son in law of a wealthy businessman from a country that has not imposed sanctions on Russia.
Out there, there be Dragons...
There are 15 people who sit around a table at the UN security council and send people off to fight in conflicts, yet you seem to have no problem with that.
Oh I do, I don't trust any of the principal members. As previously stated, I don't for a second believe that peoples lives are their primary concern.
Francie thinks that Europe should turn its swords into plowshares, send the American baddies back across the Atlantic, offer Putin a saucer of milk and there'll be no consequences for the European peace, our way of life, the sovereignty of Eastern Europe and democracy at large.
Putin and Russian nationalists will all of a sudden start being sound and will magically transform itself into a giant version of a Nordic Social democracy not intent to steamroll its neighbors and snatch back its empire.
so we should leave the UN as well? maybe the EU while we're at it to avoid this nasty mutual defence pact thingamajig.
and lets face it, you can't really trust the government, full of Dublin types who are only looking after themselves and that president fella, he's a bit shifty looking.
You can't trust anyone, best to start digging a bunker and stocking up on bottled water and sliced pans.
Are you actually Moscow Mick? Serious question.
If I trust them and you don't, what difference will it make? It might advance your claim that Ireland shouldn't join them, [I can't see that happening anyway].
I'd like to think that NATO is more positively inclined on my behalf than that guy from the East.
Yeh, I don't trust the motives of those suddenly shouting for us to join NATO and it follows that I wouldn't trust them in NATO either.
Not being in NATO has served us well, I see no threat to us and I value what we do as a neutral country.
Nothing that has been said here convinces me otherwise.
Fair enough, that's a reasonable position.
🤣
Francie is the political version of the guy who posts moody photos on Facebook of Tom Hardy or Tommy Shelby from Peeky Blinders smoking a cigarette accompanied by a inspo quote about loyalty and trust:
"I look both ways crossing a one-way street, because the wolf needs to watch his back in this world"
Not being in NATO has served us well, mainly because every other country in Europe is in it.
Hiding behind others isn't neutrality.
Who are we hiding from exactly? Try not to get into fanciful scaremongering about Russians storming up the Shannon Estuary.
Certainly for me I am of the opinion that we should bring an end to our national policy of military neutrality. Facts are as the Taoiseach himself recently has said just because we are militarily neutral does not mean we are neutral overall because we are not. I see our long term future as part of the EU and I think taking full part in a new EU defense force might be a good first step for us to take. Obviously we will never be a major player militarily but we can take a niche approach so to speak. So for example one idea might be as an island we upgrade our naval capabilities. Currently our defense expenditures are only 0.3% of GDP but as recently as the early 1980's they were around 1.5%. I would suggest we at least up spending in the short term to 1% and look to end our military neutrality and become a full participant in a new EU defense force. We can then asses possible NATO membership after that.
Hilarious.
You spent two weeks arguing that we should not get rid of the Triple Lock, which essentially gives the main members of the UN Security Council a veto over Irish Defence policy.
Yet, here you are sometime later stating you don't trust them.
Its all a wind-up and a parody. You have no credibility whatsoever.
You don't think the war in Ukraine has no reprecussions for European Security?
I spent two weeks asking you for a better way of doing it, including asking you would you be happy with a future government sending troops into Northern Ireland aggressively.
You ran away from that question because you knew the answer would completely undermine what you have argued on here for years. 😁 A faux pas I enjoyed let me say.
I don't see a better way than operating under a UN mandate. If you do let me know. The UN is not perfect but we are in it. Nor is NATO and we aren't and we should stay that way.
Of course it has...but so did ISIS, so did Syria...there are wars and conflicts ongoing around the globe mark, see the map I linked.
Well, hiding from taking responsibility for starters. Like when Russian bombers do their little jaunt along the north of Scandinavia and down to the Bay of Biscay and we rely on other air forces to escort them through Irish controlled airspace. We don’t even have the ability to shoot down an airliner in a 9/11 scenario, we have an agreement with the RAF to do it if we ask them
we have to rely on other countries to get our citizens home from trouble spots, because we don’t have the capability.
Ireland is not neutral simply because it is dependent on other countries. Neutrality is just an excuse for decades of under funding the defense forces.
I agree Fasano, underfunding of own defence forces was criminal, we should lay the blame for that where it belongs.
Not all wars are equal. There is a difference between a Syrian civil war and a war where the biggest military power and nuclear power in Europe invades an other European country. You know this but you pretend to be ignorant on the matter.
More lies.
You spent weeks arguing against removing the triple lock in case the Irish government went mad and decided to invade another nation. You put the UN at the top of the pedestal. Now here you are saying you don't trust the UN Security Council.
Yes, and it invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea, used chemical weapons in Syria etc etc, yet is still in the UN, has not been a pariah state, has been able to flow it's money through Europe, has been approached for votes, has had European investment but Ireland not being in NATO is a problem for European security?
Please stop patronising people with the righteous scaremongering. There are a lot more than Ireland who need to get their act together and be consistent. The minute a country puts aggressive boots on the ground in another sovereign state they need to be a pariah rogue state and treated accordingly. Waiting until we saw what we have seen in the last month is geo-political gameplaying gone tragically wrong. Lessons need to be learnt.
But but but....
That is basically your common debating tactic.
Lessons need to be learnt.
Yes, and Ireland fomenting greater military alliances with other western nations is one of them. It's inevitable at this stage especially given we are members of the EU and Germany have ditched 80 years of post-war pacifism.
So you don't think Russia should have been treated as a pariah state for aggressively invading and annexing in 2014?
Yet when I suggested a peaceful mission into NI you scaremongered that we would have been treated as a pariah state for decades and you liked posts saying we'd be bombed into the stone age for doing it? 😁😁
Consistency is not your thing is it?
You also want rid of the triple lock, and refuse to answer how you would feel if a government with a NATO qualifying force sent aggressive troops in to NI?
I'd say you'd want the triple lock back almost as desperately as you want your credibility back if that happened.
Nite mark.
What irish politians are willing to carry the can politically for action of nato....we have that sinn fein leader answering qs for ira bombings when she was 11,and we told,thats reasonable enough
So,when will our political establishment be willing answer qs in relation to natos bombing campaign in kosovo??
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