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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,231 ✭✭✭✭Strumms




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Weather is moving about a bit, heatwave in Siberia, snow in Texas. Average stayed constant



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    It gets much worse. The economics don't work either - 12 years for the offshore turbines. Not only do us electricity consumers have to subsidise random energy, we have to subsidise the backup for the random energy, electricity prices will continue to rise for the foreseeable future.

    The economic life would be 15 years with the constant load factor and only 12 years for the declining load factor. Operating profit – gross revenue minus opex – is less than the finance charge in every year under both revenue scenarios. The project is clearly a dud for both lenders and investors if we base projections for revenues and costs on actual experience. So, what we have is the usual bromide “this time things will be different” – a variant of Samuel Johnson’s triumph of hope over experience.

    source

    One of the members of the Irish climate quango is Ottmar Edenhofer who gave an interview to a Swiss media outfit years ago that "Climate policy has almost nothing to do anymore with environmental protection . . .". That wealth redistribution is going to wealthy urban dwellers see Measuring the equity impacts of government subsidies for electric vehicles.

    The strong uptake in affluent areas has the potential of having an impact upon equity and just transition as the country seeks to decarbonise; and “if the price of traditional fuels increase, such policies could have a disproportionate impact upon those living in deprived areas with lower income levels”. source

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Pardon me. It seems that the Untidy Notions have failed their primary mission for quite some time and we now in World War 3. You might remember the UN, a dubious bunch of terminal statists and useful idiots set out to "One World" the planet, one carefully mis-managed crisis after another. The basis of their latest attention grabbing headlines is RCP 8.5, the "business as usual" completely implausible scenario. Now we have Vice-President of the European commission Franz Timmermans pushing the European Green new Deal and pushing this nonsense. The reason Europe increased its consumption of Russian gas can be directly linked to the policy of promomoting random energy generation, these schemes do not work without gas as the backup power source.


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,776 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Unless you have meaningful suggestions how to overcome any of the real world problems we are facing, I'm not really interested in reading a blanket condemnation of any of the groups which are attempting to make the world safer/prosperous/sustainable for all who do or will occupy it.

    It's easy to castigate and condemn, who do you suggest we turn to?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    There is another thread on present matters, I won't go too far into this, the proper start is to concentrate all available resources on the organisations number one purpose to maintain international peace and security not mission creep into the green crusades. A lot of people are dying because of the collective actions of state leaders refusing to do diplomacy and abide by existing agreements, compounding the problems are the restrictions of energy supply and food due to an ACTUAL man made crisis: WAR.

    What planet am I on when the head of the UN comes out 4 days after the start of a major conflagration backed by a major public relations campaign and calls the UN report that is based on nothing more that fictional computer modelling an atlas of human suffering and a damning indictment of failed climate leadership.” We now have critical problems to solve, and weather is not one of them, staying alive in the present and near future is and always has been.


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    The current war in Europe has nothing to do with climate change your just trying to deflect.


    There will be more wars due to the impacts of climate. Maybe in the future thanks to climate change Russia will have access to plenty of warm water ports when the attic ice melts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    yes, it's hard to take them seriously when they want to take millions of people from low-emissions societies and move them to high-emissions societies



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,513 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Would you use this as a basis to reject Ukrainian refugees? Ireland trumps most countries when it comes to Co2 per capita.



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  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The IEA 10 point plan to reduce the EU's reliance on Russian Natural gas.

    If anything this war is going to see a rapid increase in the pace of transition to renewables

    image.png

    155 billion cubic meters (bcm) of nat gas is imported from Russia each year accounting for 45% of EU's gas needs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Ireland is back at 1980 levels, there's been a massive drop the last 12 years but your lot won't acknowledge that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    I think that we can agree that the war itself has nothing to do with climate change, however, the increased demand for Russian gas is driven by necessity due to the policies pursued by states running an electrical grid on random energy while at the same time shutting down nuclear generation.

    The point I am making, it is absurd for the Secretary General of the United Nations to make claims based on computer model fiction, when a real conflict has broken out with deadly serious global consequences (refugees, loss of lives and property, starvation). The incident really illustrates how the people pushing the green agenda are operating in their own bubble divorced from reality. The United Nations has been making "its worse that we thought" claims since at least the early 70s, over that 50 years ALL of which have failed to pass. Remind me what was UN's primary purpose . . .

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Complete pie in the sky devoid of any cost benefit analysis. Random energy has to be 100% backed up with alternative sources of energy, the more of it put on the grid the more gas is needed, the balancing costs and the costs of providing that standby power continually drive up the costs of electricity for consumers. Random energy has reached its limits, any more and the grid becomes unreliable, it is already close to breaking and spare generation capacity has been removed there is little margin for error, the term to get used to from now on is "demand management" which is a polite way of saying getting kicked off the grid.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I see this line rolled out every now and again yet all of the EU, including ourselves, is plowing ahead with converting the grid to 80% renewable by 2030 and 100% by 2050.

    Folks may stomp their feet, throw tantrums etc but the transition away from fossil fuels is well underway and is only accelerating



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    All you need to know those targets are set by politicians without regard to physics or market economics.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,411 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams




  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well market economics use such things as LCOE which is only pointing one way in terms of generation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,411 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    It’s actually hilarious that a country that cannot defend itself intends leaving gas and oil reserves in the ground , the resources will be taken by someone by force one day



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 703 ✭✭✭US3




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Levelised cost of electricity (LCOE) is not the cost to electricity consumers from turbines or solar panels and takes no account of the minimum backup requirements (MBR) which is how much generating capacity a system must have to reliably produce power when random generation sources like wind turbines and solar panels don’t. Consumers are subsidising (Eirgrid speak = supports) producers via constraint payments (wind turbines) and capacity payments (CCGT plants). There is a management cost overhead to putting non-synchronous generation sources on the grid, it is not a simple matter of putting solar panels on the roof and hooking up to the grid, the cost of managing that works its way into consumers electricity bills.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    You are reacting to what is seen, you take no account of what is unseen. As an example practically everyone these days has a smartphone with "apps" and the backend processing for those apps is done in data centers. Behind those apps are administrators, developers, sales people and all the people that typically are employed up a modern company or corporation (you may even find diversity co-ordinators (i.e. HR) employed among them).

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,978 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    To be honest (and I know this will be unpopular), I'm concerned about the numbers being talked about on the radio in the last few days - at least 100,000 being suggested to arrive here.

    Where are we going to put them? We have a massive housing and particularly rental crisis at the moment. This idea of people giving them a room is noble but not a long term solution. Then there's the huge costs of living in this country. How are they going to manage those? Who will pay to support them and for how long?

    There's talk about waiving all entry requirements for them and the narrative seems to be that they'll be settled long term. Again, how are we going to sustain that?

    I'm all for trying to help, but it has to be realistic. Just as with Green policies, the authorities are all caught up with "doing the right thing" (and being seen to do so), but very little thought about how practical or sustainable it is.



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But those people, other than data centre engineers, don't have to be in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,513 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Warehouses, tents, empty offices... Anything is better than somewhere that's being shelled by Russians. And it's going to cost us too, to look after them, it might even mean house prices and rent are more expensive and we end up having less disposable income, shock horror. Helping these poor victims of war might actually mean you have less money to spend on things! Maybe we should just leave them in Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    They are getting bombs and guns fired at them.....children as young as 18m getting killed. Yet we have people on here "concerned" that Ireland might be helping out and letting them stay till this war is hopefully over.

    Over 1200 properties available to rent according to daft. Plenty of villages around Ireland with houses vacant and nobody wants to move into them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    In terms of the main topic of Green policies are destroying this country

    Are people aware that if the Greens had implemented a lot of their policies over the last 20 years Ireland would currently not be so tied to the price of oil. All the sustainable projects we canned is coming back now to kick us in the arse.

    Will it change anyone and when the war is over do you think we should invest in public transport etc? not a hope in hell.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,860 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    True, the telecommunications revolution means one of them can be an Irish citizen living in Sicily while being contracted to work for an American MNC that runs it's tax affairs through it's Dublin office. All this is possible because of relatively cheap energy and transport systems. The greens policies are antithetical to that, the dispute with then canters around the fact they want to make energy and transport less available and more expensive. The life support systems we have built in the last 100 years have a lot of reliability engineering built in to keep them operational, trying to shoehorn random generation into that system has its limits and costs and the idea of 100% generation is possible using these methods is nonsense.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,978 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Enough with the soapboxing - I already said that we should try to help, but it needs to be sustainable and practical too, for both their benefit as well as ours

    We can't just open the floodgates either. That wouldn't help anyone and those additional costs you so easily dismiss are all well and good if you have a buffer to absorb it, but for many people they're already struggling badly as it is. That's reality too.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,529 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    If Russia turns off the gas taps that supply 40% of europes gas and if we get a spell of good calm weather with no wind, how exposed are we to blackouts?



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