If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
What reason would the UK have for sitting around and waiting in that situation? Would need some serious imagination for Russia to invent a new fake history about how Ireland is historically really part of Russia and how they are just rescuing the Irish from their Nazi leadership so that the Irish can be rejoined to the motherland.
Currently there is a foolish hope from the west that Russia will stop after Ukraine. If they were to invade Ireland the only reason would be then take the UK and Europe. Would be a stupid way to do so, but still.
There would be no reason for the UK to hesitate in attacking Russian forces in Ireland the moment Ireland said "can we have a little help please". There is no purpose to invading Ireland other than to then take the UK.
Have you seen the footage of Ukrainian cities being bombed relentlessly from a distance by Russian artillery?
As it stands right now a fleet of Russian ships could sail up the Shannon estuary( who’d stop them) and bomb the likes of moneypoint power station and Limerick city etc in the very same way as Kiev and Kharkiv are being bombed and the only response would be further sanctions because for anyone capable of stopping them to intervene would be world war 3.
They were only 2-300 miles off our coast a few weeks ago.
Sure Francie... what ever you want to tell yourself.
NATO? No. I would like to see a European defence treaty emerge and would like Ireland to be fully integrated into it. Also, being in a European defence pact could only be a good thing in the event of a United Ireland.
I have heard it before no doubt.
Tell us, if you criticised a political party would you accept their word as a defence? ROFL.
You can't answer the criticisms/questions yourself is the issue here, you breeze right past them scaremongering about Putin bots.
Amazing response!
"Why read them, when I have my mind made up"
Amazing. You are just not capable of growing, learning something new, or looking at this objectively.
Sometimes people like that are called Fanatics and Zealots.
Again, you are just on a WUM crusade.
Why would I read them when I can see stuff for my own eyes?
I'm going with option a) for you tbh.
You didn't read the documents did you?
That says it all.
I'm going with the C) option myself.
For many of the left, they hate the Capitalist system propagated by 'The West' and America in particular.
What's the phrase used by Malcolm X?
"You cannot have capitalism without racism"
There is a certain utopian romanticism at play when we talk about Russia, workers taking power and all that, so for the good hard lefties, any system or country that gives "The West" a bloody nose is fine by them.
The problem now though, we have all seen what that other side of the coin is. Putin's Russia, Xi's China.... etc.. are not regimes or systems we ever want to back or emulate.
For all its faults "The West" is by far the best we have and your average leftie should recognise that first and foremost instead of siding with people and regimes like usual idiots. We see here in this thread the moral equivalence that NATO is the same as Putin's Russia and both are to blame. This is 100% false. It's flat-earther syndrome.
It's like saying that when the Nazis were trying to exterminate European Jews that there is a moral equivalence there, that the Jews must have done something to warrant their treatment? As if it was a fair fight and the Jews just lost fair and square, and if only we sat down with the SS for a bit and had a chat, we could have all sorted it out and gone home. Such a world view of course is the highest form of idiocy and naivety. We see the usual useful idiots display the same characteristics on this thread.
So the defence of criticism of NATO and the US and it's military allies is a document from NATO and the US State dept? 😁
It is, let me show you some links.
There is tonnes of evidence that shows the Kremlin pushing a narrative that NATO is a threat and is equally to blame for the Ukraine invasion. This is a Putin and Kremlin talking point. It is entirely false, just like the anti-vax stuff, just like the flat earth stuff...
Now that you are now educated on the matter, if you still persist with that narrative one can suspect that you are
a) A willing shill peddling pro-Putin lies
b) Unable due to your intellectual capacity to read and understand the above links.
c) A WUM trying to get a rise
Good point by Brigid Laffin on TV3 there, the debate on 'what is our defence policy' should be had first, then talk about neutrality and alliances.
The left has a serious serious problem on this front. I'm glad Monibot is tackling it somewhat (for all the good it will do), but a good many people on that end of the political spectrum need to have a serious chat with themselves about how they've become either vessels for absolutely gutter-level propaganda, or have let it slide that poltical bedfellows push unreconstructed propaganda.
So many people have been utterly had by what if we're honest about it, is fascist propaganda - and they've gone so far down that road it would be utterly humiliating on a personal level to turn back and recant.
Is that Mick or Clare?
Anyway what has NATO do with any of these places? Sounds more like you have a problem with the UN than NATO.
Have I arrived back in 1100 or 1300 or 1500 or 1600AD My memory is extremely short on irish history
No
Playing a blinder now ,
Embarrassing the little man in Moscow on a daily and nightly basis and he cant do a thing about it .
Hundreds of tons of supplies and weapons flowing into ukraine through Nato supply lines ,Nato and the US supplying aerial surveillance and targeting information 24/7 ,
He's lost ukraine forever and he's turned into the Moscow Kim Il in north Korea
You're being silly now.
According to NATO.
"The North Atlantic Alliance was founded in the aftermath of the Second World War. Its purpose was to secure peace in Europe, to promote cooperation among its members and to guard their freedom – all of this in the context of countering the threat posed at the time by the Soviet Union. ................"
NATO since Christmas day 1991, replace "Soviet Union" with "anything that may threaten the American petrodollar".
For over 30 years NATO has been all about maintaining the supremacy of the Western central banking system, the petrodollar and the profits of armaments manufacturers. Where do Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, and Iran fit in with secure peace in Europe.
It isn't.
The reds under the beds scaremongering won't change it either.
NAT/US and their allies are not covered in glory in the lead up to this, neither is Putin.
It is like some people forget that Ireland is already a member of the EU and PFC.
If you are worried about China sanctioning Ireland then you really need to check out what is happening in the world. The EU has recently launched a number of WTO disputes regarding Chinese business practices - this includes a blockade of trade the China is currently taking with another EU member (Lithuania) sanction in other words. EU responses will be EU wide (including Ireland). This could result in a trade war with the EU. Like it or not Ireland as a member of the EU will be involved. Exactly the same rules apply as for NATO.
NATO/US also deserves blame.
Even after it's been made clear that the above is a Putin propaganda talking point, you still peddle it.
You are a disgrace.
As I said, if China or the CCP puts sanctions on all NATO members, then it's signing its own death warrant economically.
Oh good, you want to turn this into a government bashing thread, because you have been called out on your pro-Putin propaganda.
How very convenient of you.
Let's stay on Topic shall we, that is Ireland, NATO and the war in Ukraine which brought about this debate in the first place.
The 'victim' is in the middle here, like so many before them sadly, as the US and Russia play geo-political games. Putin without doubt deserves the lions share of the blame.
NATO/US also deserves blame. If ending neutrality or joining NATO is the be all and end all regarding security, explain why Ukraine are not in NATO, they have asked often enough and are now pleading to be in it.
Something I have struggled with is that republicans use Article 5 as a reason why Ireland should not join NATO as we would have to defend the UK if attacked, but many of the same republicans tell us that if Ireland had sent a "peacekeeping" force into the North in 1969/70, NATO would have ignored the attack on the UK. The double standards are always baffling.
I do not see any problem with joining NATO, but I would much prefer to join an EU Defence Pact. If one of our EU partners is attacked, be that Latvia or Poland, we should stand with them.
Quite silly to actually think joining Nato would be good for Ireland or even possible really.
We don't have an army, and we do not need one, what we do need is for our supposedly elected government officials to stop opening their mouths to the world and trying to throw us in the same conversations as Nato when it comes to Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Anyone with a brain knows Russia is in the wrong, but knowing, and openly sprouting it from the rooftops are two different things, we have no reason nor do we have any resources to offer the world in this battle. Nato and Russia are the 2 major reasons behind the conflict, so they should both be the ones who deal with it. A country of 5 million a half a world away from it is not going to have any say or decisive voice in the issue.
If you honestly think anyone would even bother to invade Ireland in modern times, you haven't a clue, we are too far from any viable threat and we are inbetween both the US and UK, meaning no country apart from them could ever hope to even hold on to us if they did mange to somehow sneak an invasion force in.
I wish the Ukrainians nothing but the best, and I hope NATO actually do something more than send prayers and kisses to them as its completely down to both NATO and Russia that Ukraine are in this mess
There you go again, blaming the victim for the violence carried out by thugs. Putin is a thug, he invaded Ukraine, he carries nearly all of the blame, and apologists who encouraged him for the last few months voting against EP and Dail resolutions and speaking out in his defence are this decade's Neville Chamberlains.
Micheal Martin called it last January and every word he said about Sinn Fein is true.
