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Checking the 'blind spot'

DocR

I have a full licence but had avoided motorway driving for a long time however I now need to do this and so took a 'motorway' lesson with a local school. All went fine other than, on changing lanes, or on exiting a roundabout on the 3rd exit (i.e. moving from the right hand lane to the left hand lane to exit) I usually glance over my shoulder / check the 'blind spot'. The instructor said I am a good, safe driver however he also said, if I was doing the test, I would be marked down for this. The reason, he said, is that mirror use is sufficient both for changing lanes and for exiting a roundabout and that to take my eyes off what is in front of me in order to glance over my shoulder, is dangerous.

I have been googling this and come to no conclusion as there appear to be many viewpoints but agreeing and disagreeing with him.

Can anyone clarify what is correct here?

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AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787919#Comment_118787919

Yes. You would be right, with a sliver, but no more. Yes, a quick 90 degree shoulder check is correct

J_R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118768572#Comment_118768572

Hi,

Why not leave a sliver of the car in the mirrors, then when you sit in you can swiftly check that they are still adjusted the way you set them. Otherwise with no fixed reference point would be difficult to check that they have not been accidently maladjusted.

Irrespective how you adjust your mirrors you must still give a shoulder check before changing lanes.

AckwelFoley

One thing I learned is the side mirrors should only show you the road each side of the car, and not the car itself, so if you can see the side of your car in your mirrors they're not adjusted correctly

J_R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118696170#Comment_118696170

Hi,

The full acronym is MSM, then the Manoeuvre is broken down into PSL, which stands for Position, Speed, Look.

When teaching it is best to break everything down into simple steps by step, explain each step then the pupil will understand and remember.

So moving off or changing position, First check if it is safe to go, (Mirrors, blind spot if necessary) if not wait, when safe, Signal and go. That covers the MS part of the acronym.

Now the M kicks in, Speed, Position and Look (Which of course covers all necessary mirror checks).

When I was an instructor I had pupils who had being taught the MSMM routine by previous instructor and were confused as to the sequence

PSL is another lesson

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118690696#Comment_118690696

It's not just the act of flicking the indicator.

You flick it on then continue to drive then manoeuvre so the updated MSMM applies.

Same applies for braking (mirror/begin to brake (which is also a signal) then checking once or more before you come to a halt or accelerate again).

If checking mirrors is too much of a distraction to what's in front for someone then I'd suggest that maybe they should consider alternative modes of transport..

J_R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118672383#Comment_118672383

Hi,

Sorry, just spotted mistake in post above. It should of course have read Mirrors Signal Manoeuvre. Perhaps that is how the MSMM came into existence. Few years back a driving instructor may have seen MSM on a safety poster and believed it stood for Mirrors Signal Mirror. And he trained a few more driving instructors in his procedure for moving off. Years later another M was added for Manoeuvre.

MSMM can confuse as it does not make any sense whatsoever. How long does it take to flick the indicator stalk. ?

MSM is basic common sense. Before taking any action all necessary observations must be taken, if safe and only if safe, indicate your intention and proceed.

But with MSMM, why do all checks, indicate to move, then, split second later, Oh wait must check my mirror(s) again. Instead of concentrating on where you are going

DocR

@[Deleted User] I'm afraid not - just a regular (small!) car. I'll hold off on the 18 wheelers for a while yet 😊

Wishbone Ash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118673636#Comment_118673636

That's not the point. The point is that it is sometimes necessary to use mirrors do do a blind spot check. (...and the OP is not a learner driver).

(...and we don't do '18 wheelers' in Ireland as the vast majority of trucks here, unlike the US, use 'super single' wheels).

[Deleted User]

i dont think our learner driver is in an 18 wheeler tbh

Wishbone Ash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118671701#Comment_118671701

It depends on the mirrors and the way that they are used. In many vehicles, it's only possible to do a blind spot check via the mirrors. Otherwise truck, bus and van drivers would be crashing regularly as they can't do an over shoulder check.

WestWicklow1

In the motorcycling community, checking the blind spot is known as "the lifesaver".

J_R

Hi,

British version of Rules of the Road (Highway Code https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code?step-by-step ) make it slightly clearer than "check your blind spot"

Before moving off

you should look around to check the blind spots (the areas you are unable to see in the mirrors)

Overtaking

use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance if necessary into the blind spot area and then start to move out,(or change lanes whatever)

And when changing position it is MSM, that is MirrorS Signal Mirror, not idiotic MSMM

[Deleted User]

any car travelling unspotted at the same speed as you over your shoulder will be missed by a mirror check, always check the blind spot the clue is in the name

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668942#Comment_118668942

Open the door using the Dutch Reach method and it will reduce this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeM984dk220

DocR

@km991148 No, I have no plans for another lesson. He said I'm a good, safe driver, just need to build confidence on the motorway so I don't feel the need for another lesson. I did return to the subject a few times during the lesson just to be sure I wasn't misunderstanding but he was adamant that what he was telling me was correct. He is the owner of a driving school that has been around for quite a few years so I do have confidence in everything he told me apart from this one thing.

@J_R That is a good (great!) point - perhaps this is what he meant and I was misunderstanding. What you say makes total and utter sense and I feel this has given me the clarity I was seeking. I think the error in understanding was totally on my part and the instructor was telling me what you have said only perhaps in a slightly less clear fashion. Very many thanks!

J_R

Hi,

There are two types of blind spot checks.

One when the car is stationary and it would be safe to trun your head and look backwards and

Two, when the car is in motion and a shoulder check is sufficienrt.

Reasons for the difference. It would be dangerous to look backwards whilst moving forward. A backwards look is or should be unnecessary as frequent proper use of your mirrors would cover all other segments.

One of the above must always be used prior to changing position on the road.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668389#Comment_118668389

Will you have another lesson?

I'd be really interested to know what they say about those examples.

Especially on the motorway, things can change fast, especially if someone is booting it and I'd never not check blindspots.

DocR

Good point @Macy0161 , thanks for that.

Macy0161

I'd also include opening the door - having had a few near misses both driving and as a cyclist where doors have been opened on me when passing a parked car.

DocR

Thanks @km991148 , I really do appreciate your substantial input 😀. Seriously though, you have all put my mind at rest that I'm ok to continue as I have been doing, it just feels safer to me!

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668288#Comment_118668288

In fairness - three of those replies were all me :D

Regardless - not to sound pompous or anything - Its a great attitude to have - extra tuition and a commitment to improvement - wish everyone took that approach!

DocR

Thanks all, that is pretty unanimous! The instructor had said the only time it is necessary to check blindspots / over the shoulder is when pulling out from the kerb, otherwise mirrors are sufficient. He must have thought me a little dim as I confirmed this with him several times during the lesson as I was so surprised by this. It feels counter intuitive to me and I would feel unsafe if I didn't take that glance over my shoulder when changing lanes / exiting a roundabout. Google has given me different opinions however anyone I have mentioned this to in real life agrees with all who have replied here. I have already passed my test (I just took a motorway lesson from this school) so that is not a consideration, I just (obviously) want to drive as safely as possible. I think I will stick with my instinct which is to check the blindspots in the scenarios mentioned.

Many thanks all for responding.

km991148

More examples:

Completing an over take on a 3 lane motorway (3 to 2) and someone has overtaken the lane 2 vehicle on the left.
2 lane roundabout, someone entered your left hand blindspot - happens often enough becasue people dont know how to use roundabouts
Single or two lane roundabout - same can happen (fast cyclists, mopeds etc)
Speeding vehicles on dual carriageways/ motorways

etc etc

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118667086#Comment_118667086

you should absolutely always check the blindspot if you are pulling away from the kerb. You would certainly fail in the UK if you didn't.

Macy0161

Right or wrong, I check my blind spot changing lanes, and joining a motorway. I also learned and passed in the UK, and I'm pretty certain that I was taught to check the blind spot even pulling away from the curb.

km991148

Never heard of this and I always check blindspots in these scenarios. Was also taught to me by my driving instructor (albeit, a good while ago now and in UK..)..

Doesn't take much to imagine situations where this is necessary - overtaking a 100kmph vehicle @120 kmph and someone overtaking you at 160/80kmph could easily be missed if you don't have a good handle on whats behind you.

Actually - I think its a stupid comment tbh - surely even "mirror use" is not looking directly ahead.

Id be looking for a new instructor lol - bit of a red flag.

tjhook

I'm not sure what's "correct", so I 'm not going to pretend I know. But I always look, not trusting my mirrors. I have an anecdote.

Years ago when I was new to driving, I was driving on a national road. I was keeping an eye in my mirrors, and there was a red Renault (can't remember now, but let's assume that was what it was) behind me. All good. I was looking in my rear view mirror regularly. I came up behind a slow car. It was safe to pass, there was plenty of visibility ahead. Checked all my mirrors, all looked fine. The red Renault was still behind me. So I indicated, looked in my mirrors again and started pulling out to pass. Except the red Renault was alongside me. There had actually two similar red Renaults in a row behind me. The one immediately behind me had gone to pass me, and was in my blind spot when I looked in my mirrors. I was seeing the second one in my mirror. Got the shock of my life. Since then I always look over my shoulder before changing lane.