@circadian @MFPM Did you read the US State Department's 2020 report on Turkey (NATO member).
Significant human rights issues included: reports of arbitrary killings; suspicious deaths of persons in custody; forced disappearances; torture; arbitrary arrest and continued detention of tens of thousands of persons, including opposition politicians and former members of parliament, lawyers, journalists, human rights activists, and employees of the U.S. Mission, for purported ties to “terrorist” groups or peaceful legitimate speech; the existence of political prisoners, including elected officials; politically motivated reprisal against individuals located outside the country; significant problems with judicial independence; severe restrictions on freedom of expression, the press, and the internet, including violence and threats of violence against journalists, closure of media outlets, and unjustified arrests or criminal prosecution of journalists and others for criticizing government policies or officials, censorship, site blocking and the existence of criminal libel laws; severe restriction of freedoms of assembly, association, and movement; some cases of refoulement of refugees; and violence against women and lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex persons and members of other minorities.
https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/turkey/
It goes on and on as you can imagine.
What has NATO done about it?
send over the irish fishermen
Last night BBC2 showed a brilliant first episode of a series on the rise of the Nazis. It centres on the decision to invade their then ally, the USSR in Operation Barbarossa (1941). The attempts to deny that the Nazis intended to invade, the way in which dictators inevitably over-reach themselves and believe their own propaganda all bore an eerie resemblance to current events in Russia. It also reminded viewers of why Russians might be fearful of invasion from the West.
But I suppose that some people seem to forget that there are fairly fundamental differences between the German regime of 1941 and Western governments to-day. The German forces massed for Operation Barbarossa numbered 3 million. Current NATO deployments in the Baltic states and Poland are more like 10 thousand, spread out over about 1000km.
The difference being I made no laudable defence of Russia, why would I but you thought you were on to a good thing about Ukraine - you weren't.
As for membership of NATO holding the Ukranian to account...come off it! Abu ghraib, extraordinary rendition, Gitmo, million dead iraqi civilians.....held to account my backside! The US do as they wish with impunity and when the likes of Israel committed war crimes as they've done in Gaza they do so under the protection of the US...so you'll forgive me if I laugh in the face of any defence of the US or the UK on human rights.
Wrong,it was Russias trade wars and blackmailing of their neighbours that led to Ukraine seeking an EU deal,that Russias puppet president sabotaged ,and went for a Russian deal instead,thats why hes in exile in Russia.
Deny , deny,deny
Any other tactics taught
A couple reasons:
1) Russian posturing scuppers whatever plans US/UK/NATO had for Ukraine; this explains their over reaction.
2) Domestically both Biden and Borris probably need a "villian" they can use to justify their own military spending excess.
I don't see what Russia has to gain by starting a hugely expensive war and incurring huge sanctions. It would likely turn into another Afghanistan. Of course the west knows they won't invade so why all the hysteria as the Russians rightly call it? Why is the west beating the war drum when they know there won't be war? That's the question.
Well that MUST be Putin because it's simply not possible to mount a DDOS attack without harnessing the resources of a government.
Oops.
Alright, fair enough.
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/UKRAINE-2020-HUMAN-RIGHTS-REPORT.pdf
"Civilian authorities generally maintained effective control over security forces in the territory controlled by the government. Members of the security forces committed some abuses." Is the pretext to that. So, let's break it down.
"unlawful or arbitrary killing; torture and cases of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment of detainees by law enforcement personnel; harsh and life-threatening conditions in prisons and detention centers; arbitrary arrest or detention; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary;" War crimes by Ukrainian military? Certainly looks like it, and they should certainly be held accountable and probably would be if they were to join the EU or NATO, it would be part of the due diligence process. What would happen to those responsible under a Russian regime?
Let's see.
"abuses in the Russia-led conflict in the Donbas, including physical abuse of civilians and members of armed groups held in detention facilities; serious restrictions on free expression, the press, and the internet, including violence, threats of violence, or unjustified arrests or prosecutions against journalists, censorship, and blocking of websites; refoulement of refugees; serious acts of corruption; lack of investigation of and accountability for violence against women; violence or threats of violence motivated by antiSemitism; crimes involving violence or threats of violence targeting persons with disabilities, members of ethnic minority groups, and lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or intersex persons; and the existence of the worst forms of child labor. "
Holy ****, I mean what the Ukrainians were up to was bad, war crimes no doubt and definitely human rights abuses. However, looking at that I don't see any kind of due process being applied under Russian rule. Do you?
Ok, let's keep going.
"The government generally failed to take adequate steps to prosecute or punish most officials who committed abuses, resulting in a climate of impunity. Human rights groups and the United Nations noted significant deficiencies in investigations into alleged human rights abuses committed by government security forces."
Well, that's not good and as I mentioned above, remediating this shitshow and following due process would have to happen before any EU/NATO membership is considered.
"In the Russia-instigated and -fueled conflict in the Donbas region, Russia-led forces reportedly engaged in unlawful or arbitrary killings of civilians, including extrajudicial killings; forced disappearances and abductions; torture and cases of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment. Other significant human rights issues included: harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest or detention; political prisoners or detainees; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; serious restrictions on free expression, the press, and the internet; substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association; severe restrictions of religious freedom; serious restrictions on freedom of movement across the line of contact in eastern Ukraine; restrictions on political participation, including unelected governments and elections that were not genuine, free, or fair; and unduly restricted humanitarian aid. "
AND
"Significant human rights issues in Russia-occupied Crimea included: forced disappearances and abductions; torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment of detainees to extract confessions and punish persons resisting the occupation; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest or detention; political prisoners or detainees; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; serious restrictions on free expression, the press, and the internet, including violence, threats of violence, or unjustified arrests or prosecutions against journalists, censorship, and site blocking; substantial interference with freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association; severe restrictions of religious freedom; serious restrictions on freedom of movement; restrictions on political participation, including unelected governments and elections that were not genuine, free, or fair; and crimes involving violence or threats of violence targeting lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or intersex persons. Russian occupation authorities in Crimea reportedly continued to engage in widespread violence against and harassment of Crimean Tatars and pro-Ukrainian activists in response to peaceful opposition to Russian occupation."
So, in response to the original post. Yes, totally LOL at Putin complaining about human rights abuses. Maybe I was being facetious with the Boris response, but in reality Putin has about as much of a point of complaint as the likes of the US or UK considering they do the same. It doesn't mean it's not happening. It does mean they're ignoring their own bullshit.
Why would Russia give a damn if the west thinks they're in the right or the wrong on this?
You only have to look at the actions of western powers in this century alone, to see that nobody needs to be paying much heed to what we consider to be "right" or "wrong". Our opinion clearly holds very little weight with them, and quite rightly too.
We have a very arrogant view in this part of the world, about what other regions should and shouldn't be doing with their affairs. Not to mention truck loads of hypocrisy to throw into the mix.
Leave eastern europe to look after eastern europe.
The west should focus on fixing their own broken nations. (not least the yanks of course)
'Significant human rights issues included: unlawful or arbitrary killing; torture and cases of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment of detainees by law enforcement personnel; harsh and life-threatening conditions in prisons and detention centers; arbitrary arrest or detention; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; abuses in the Russia-led conflict in the Donbas, including physical abuse of civilians and members of armed groups held in detention facilities; serious restrictions on free expression, the press, and the internet, including violence, threats of violence, or unjustified arrests or prosecutions against journalists, censorship, and blocking of websites; refoulement of refugees; serious acts of corruption; lack of investigation of and accountability for violence against women; violence or threats of violence motivated by anti-Semitism; crimes involving violence or threats of violence targeting persons with disabilities, members of ethnic minority groups, and lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or intersex persons; and the existence of the worst forms of child labor'
Paragraph from the US state department document on human rights practices in Ukraine 2020....
I understand nuance perfectly...you clearly don't...
Russian troops in Ukraine .....
KYIV (Reuters) - Russia's military increased inspections of units in rebel-held parts of Ukraine since the end of last week, the Interfax Ukraine news agency said on Tuesday, quoting a Ukrainian military intelligence report.
The report said "senior bodies of Russia's military command" have been inspecting rebel units and their ability to attain the highest combat readiness "with marches to certain training areas and their staffing."
1. I wasn't responding to you.
2. You continue to confuse me with someone else, I've engaged in no whataboutery, merely pointed put the hypocrisy of the US/UK imperialism.
3. Putin is not going to accept NATO aggressively targeting Russia so one can understand (while not supporting) his attitude to Ukraine seeking to join NATO though its not happening anytime soon.
4. The West is divided, Germany and France for their own particular reasons were clearly against any conflict and realised that the US were ramping this rhetoric up and trying to provoke conflict. They also know that Biden has focused more on the AUKUS alliance and has relegated the EU from his priority as he seeks to protect US hegemony.
5. Putin was never going to invade, I have stated that from the first day I posted on this thread...
6. You're allowing your Western bias cloud your judgement. Russia is nothing akin to what the SU was and it isn't going to be though it will continue to be a significant world force. The real battle of course is between the US and China which will continue to play out. India's rise is clearly a factor too but they have been willing to throw their lot in with the US - no calls for nuclear disarmament from the US there of course! The crisis over Ukraine and the agressive stance of the US has nothing to do with protecting a state, or human rights or democracy etc, only a blind fool would believe that nonsense. It's about putting Putin in his place and fundamentally about the decline of US hegemony and the weakening of that 'empire' brought about by their criminal activity, their greed, and their involvement in some of the worst atrocities of the 21st century.
7. Ask the Chileans, the Bolivians the Nicaraguans, the Venezuelans, the Cubans do they get 'respect' as 'independent neighbours' of the US?
@eskimohunt This is why Putin won't invade, and never was going to invade, Ukraine.
As awful as their actions are, I think it's a combination of being made to look serious about their own back yard, whilst making a fool of the West by over-reacting into believing something may actually happen.
Putin hasn't gone away nither has the 130,000 Russian troops surrounding ukraine,if you think this is settled your mistaken,
The west didn't overeact if anything they have called Putins bluff publicly ,he's gained nothing Ukraine is going to Join the EU and now more than likely will apply to join nato,
Do you honestly think putin just burned tens of millions to say haha made you look,
At 2.18pm this poster advised another poster to go and see a professional.
I think anyone who posts about privates stuck up ones rear BADLY needs to go and see a professional!
What exactly happened was that Western powers funded the revolution which caused the overthrow of Pro Russian President Victor Yanukovich.
then the western powers provided huge amount of money to U?kranian senators to vote for them to join EU.
For al lactions there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Then Russian invaded Crimea causing instability.
Currently, nothing is going to happen. Russia won't invade, Ukrain wont join EU or NATO. Russia will benefit from this by getting all sanctions on them lifted.
This is why Putin won't invade, and never was going to invade, Ukraine.
But I don't believe Putin will but, as I say, he has to make it look serious - hence the extreme efforts made so far.
But as the polling shows among ordinary Russians, there's no appetite for it; and certainly no reason for Putin to go ahead and do it.
Sending troops into Ukraine is unpopular
Sending arms or deploying Russian troops into Ukraine is unpopular — and has only become more so as Russians tire of the war Moscow and its proxies have waged in eastern Ukraine since 2014. According to our latest survey of 3,245 Russians in December, just 8 percent think Russia should send military forces to fight against Ukrainian government troops there. Only 9 percent think Russia should train or equip separatist forces with Russian arms.
Not really, it's equally as galling when they point this out considering the past (and current) behaviours of their governments. The difference being is that there is no evidence of human rights abuses by the Ukrainians where there have been countless, evident abuses within the Russian state (killing journalists, political opponents, oppression of homosexuals, oppression of minorities. The list goes on).
It'd be like Boris giving out about human rights abuses by the Irish for always asking "are the Brits at it?" while at the same time doing everything in his power to cover up Bloody Sunday and protect those responsible.
You do understand nuance, don't you?
I'd love to know how your KPIs are assessed. I'm sure the whole mask slipping and spiralling into a nonsensical rant will do you no favours.
Personally I believe they were illegal. The letter of the law states otherwise.
Ohhh, lackeys. Are you saying Russia and Putin were America's lackeys? I mean, the Russians voted along with the rest of the UN to enact measures to operate in Afghanistan, and when NATO took command of operations the Russian military still provided assistance. Is that what you're talking about?
Granted, Russia, like many western nations took a very different opinion on the Iraq war, which in turn did in fact turn out to be built on lies, not matter how much of a shitbag Hussein was.
Anyway, I have no idea what this has to do with Russia currently intimidating and threatening a sovereign nation who simply wants to follow it's own democratic process.
Like what countries
But you're OK with Johnson and Biden doing it! 🙄
"Rules Based Order" is but a thin veneer in geopolitics. Might really does make right and the US knows this better than anyone.
The US would not confront Russia militarily for the same reasons they won't against any nuclear capable country.
Mask slipping a bit there, comrade. In what possible way is Putin a hero?
How has he "gained" Crimea? He already illegally annexed it in 2014.
Lets assume what you're saying is true, are you happy about it? Do you believe it is justified? Why should a country not be free to associate with whomever they choose? How is it justified that one country with greater might can dominate and bully another?
And if we live in this might is right world, then why hasn't the us invaded and crushed Russia with combined airforce, navy and ground forces? Why didn't they do it in the 90's when the russians were in complete dissarray? Russia is not a real competitor, it has an economy the size of Texas, it has good military capabilities but nothing compared to the US or even the Chinese. It has nuclear deterrent but I don't believe they would deploy it short of Moscow being under seige.
Putin gained Crimea at the very least, he'll always be considered a hero.
Had to laugh at Putin bringing up human rights violations, what a troll.
Correct.
That was wrong then and Russian invading Ukraine would be wrong now (if it happens).
On what planet did the Russians not think that? Talk about misreading a situation....but then most of the pro Western Imperialism posters here have been so consumed by the West's propaganda they can't see the wood for the trees, I made that point weeks ago!
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