You must be the only one who believes that
It's called the Russian army
Prior to independence, Dev went cap in hand to the US for money and support to enable us to become a free state
Should the US have shut the door on him?
Geopolitics is horrendously complicated
OK. Just hear me out, this might seem a bit mental but when one major country threatens a neighbour for little to no reason, then others are going to have something to say about it. The elected government in Ukraine has asked for diplomatic help, as they are well within their right to do so and have received it.
If they just sat by and said sweet **** all about it, how do you think that would go down? "What's that? Russia is threatening you and amassing hundreds of thousands of troops on the border and cutting off your sea links? Well, jeeeez, I'd love to help but you're on your own bud, best of luck"
The U.S. was one of the first countries to recognise and interact with Ireland as a free-state. You could say that we received their support to a degree, so to speak. Should they have ignored us and dealt solely with Britain?
So, ask any Irish person if it was the US that created the Irish Free State. The answer would be a resounding no. It was the will of the average Irish person to live independently (see our history). The US simply respected the democratic processes in Ireland and recognised us as such.
I am not going to say that the US is all wonderful. They have plenty of faults. But some want to use lazy arguments to convince people how awful the US is. The reality is far more complicated than you pretend. And the US and its moral record are not what is in question here.
The whole purpose of the debate can be distilled down to, do you agree with Russia’s right to invade Ukraine, militarily.
If the US had nothing to do with Ukraine than your point has merit.
But as learned in the leaked Nuland call, this whole thing has US fingerprints over it.
Why do you think the US and UK primarily, are reacting so strongly? Is it because those 2 countries have such great commitment to rules based international order? Or perhaps it's because they already had plans for Ukraine and the current situation frustrates those plans.
The usual response when you dont have a proper answer
whataboutism
The technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.
Is this a thread about American foreign policy and their many, many digressions or a thread about continued Russian aggression towards a neighbour (not to mention annexation of some territory)? We're all well aware of the American Government meddling in affairs elsewhere, but it seems that some are doing their absolute best to ignore the fact that this thread is about the escalating tensions between Ukraine and Russia over Ukraine, a sovereign nation no less, making decisions for itself.
Oh ok, and Kosovo didn't break away without help from US and NATO?
Taiwan didn't break away without help from the US?
If the government is so terrible, then they can follow the cycle of democracy and vote for an alternative party in the next election. I mean, the next election for the Verkhovna Rada (the Ukraine Parliament) is in 2023. Not such a long time? And if things are truly dire, the people of Ukraine can choose to dissolve it before then
Think it's likely the Russians leave the border in the next few days. Some drills have already ended and disbanded.
Ukraine said there may be some flexibility on not joining NATO.
Then later they backtracked. Makes me think they will not join NATO but the yanks got onto them to not announce it or else it'll show Russia won and got what they wanted.
It's happening now in E Ukraine and it's already happened in Crimea. People don't have to wait until a hostile government decides when it's OK for them to vote now.
Break away with help from Kremlins little green men
Wagner group,night wolves,cossacks,russian orthodox army and unmarked spetznas,yes we know that.
Why do you think Putin wants the rest
Alright, so I'm now in my early 30's and I've had my ups and downs with the mates around me. The big fella (a bit of a Begbie) is still as mad as ever and while I was fit to put up with it when I was younger I find myself drifting away from that friendship to more stable and mutual friendships. I'm well within my right to do so, it's probably better for me to distance myself from the big fella since he's just as volatile now as he was 15 years ago.
Chances are he's going to get proper pissed off at me, my actions would be like "a red rag to a bull" and I'd know full well it is, but in the grand scheme it's the right choice for me. Does that mean he can just go ahead and threaten me and maybe even glass me in the face?
In the same way, that Ireland will likely at some point in our history have a referendum for united Ireland, why cannot Ukraine then have a referendum to decide to split. However, it is paramount that this is a very tightly run and fair referendum. It has to truly be the rule of the people. Otherwise, it is not democracy
why must the matter be forced if it will happen naturally?
Even if they are only an absolute minority
I am sorry. I don’t mean to be snide. It cheapens a much deeper argument that I am trying to make. I did hesitate before posting
My argument is that if (and I do use the subjective tense there) Russia invades, then that violates the principles of a country to exist freely. If we can all invade as we wish, then the sovereignty of any country can be breached. And we will never live in peace. And if only a select few counties can invade, then that violates basic tenets of philosophy. In order for us to live in an equal society, freedom must be restricted. If I am free to do whatever I want, I can kill somebody. But then that person experiences the ultimate deprivation of liberty. In order to co-exist peacefully, we all must accept restrictions, Russia included.
In order for the society to be enlightened, we need public freedom to state our beliefs. I am delighted to have the debate with you. I am trying to see things from your point. Please have the same courtesy towards my view-point
No, no i'm not. I have posted that what i think will happen, is that most of E Ukraine will break away, like South Ossetia from Georgia.
"NATO's march eastward"? Ridiculous.
HAs NATO invaded any countries on its "march eastward"? No it has not.
What has happened is that countries have applied to join. Can we think of any reasons why a country, perhaps a former Soviet republic for instance, might feel safer as a member of an organisation such as NATO? Clue: there's 130000 of them sitting on Ukraine's border right now.
There's absolutely no need to be so snide and ignorant. If you don't want to acknowledge the bankruptcy of your own argument that's fine but do try stay civil, good lad!
I don’t know, Gatling, why I bother. I have better things to do with my day. But I just find the arguments that they make so ludicrous, that they have to be challenged
But you are extrapolating that now to the whole of Ukraine wishing to retain a very close alliance with Russian. Assumptions like that can lead to bloody wars
And so they have.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26606097
And for that to proceed legitimately in a democratic society, critical mass, in this context, will refer to a majority of people in this area (crimea and Donbas) wishing to associate with Russia.
What blue planet is saying he doesn't know ,he doesn't know how many people in Ukraine want to rejoin Russia,
He doesn't know anything about the government or people of Ukraine
"the minimum size or amount of resources required to start or maintain a venture"
In the case of Crimea and Donbas, to break away from Ukraine and associate with Russia.
A critical mass is a sufficient amount of a substance to initiate a chain reaction. Now, in democracies (don’t know how it works in Autocratic areas), a critical mass, with respect to bringing about a change is de facto a majority of people.
5% would be a minority even at 20% still a minority in a regional part of a sovereign state
So your saying that a minority should have total control of a country
True, I don’t know if Russia will invade.
Personally, I don’t think that Russia will invade this time around. I think that it is a very ingenious ploy. They build it to a critical point. And then they will pull back for now. I mean, it will undermine the faith of the people in the West if they do not invade. They can dismiss the American intelligence reports as evidence of hysteria and war-mongering. They will wait until mid-term elections or a moment of Western instability. They will then swipe. By that stage, it will be a case of the Boy Who Cried Wolf for the US. We will be far more underprepared.
But what do I know? I am just some schmuck in county Dublin!
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