Who's flogging the idea ,there has been very little actual discussion on ukraine and nato ,
The Ukrainians said it themselves at one point they would like to be members at some point in the future ,but they have ongoing reforms around the economy and politically to worry about first and foremost .
The most talk about ukraine and NATO is coming from Russia , painting nato as some kind of bogey man planning to invade Russia
How is growing relations some kind of automatic problem? Besides the US interference that seems to go hand in hand, i mean.
Gazprom and Nord Steam 1 & 2 are growing relations.
They were never a guarantee anyway, and Russia were told even if they expressed interest, they would need to go through the full process (which takes years).
Anyway, that's a side point and something Putin is bashing for years as his excuse, when the biggest problem is the growing relations between Ukraine and the EU to the detriment of the Kremlin.
Well play that out agoodpunt.
Let's say NATO decides to allow Ukraine to be member tomorrow. The reality on the ground is that Ukraine doesn't control all the land area of their country and allegedly there are Russian forces there. That would immediately precipitate a call of Article 4 "when the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the parties is threatened."
Also Article 5 "commits each member state to consider an armed attack against one member state, in Europe or North America, to be an armed attack against them all."
NATO expansion into Ukraine is a call to war.
While you may be happy enough with that, i bet a load of NATO members would be very unhappy that hawks in the US and Britain would send their sons to die in Ukraine in a war with Russia that they wanted to avoid.
Then one by one states that where soviet can be picked off this is not a democratic country it a gangster aka putin
Well there's probably very little chance of Ukraine becoming a NATO member while Russian forces are in the east of that country and in Crimea. Doesn't stop the hawks from flogging that horse though. Probably calmer heads will prevail within that alliance and they will not allow Ukraine in. Doing so is just to invite war with Russia.
The best and worst thing about Europe is that everyone has open input. This is always misconstrued as countries not being on a level footing.
Where in fact, it's the opposite, and shows transparency in the decision making process (can be very slow though). Russia and China don't have this, so of course they will see it as flawed. Even America doesn't have this (in a European sense), as they have (what is perceived as) a single decision maker (it's far more complex than that, but only controversial bills debated in congress etc... usually get seen this side of the water most times).
Nobody wants to bring in sanctions. Even though sanctions are made out that they hurt one side and not the other, they usually hit both sides, just not equally, and it's Germany's own doing that one of the main sanctions being considered, will hit them a lot too, when they had the chance to diversify energy sources years ago, and Putin knows this.
But back to the point, if you don't think they are on equal footing, you should have a look into where German, French, Dutch, Belgian etc... troops are currently being sent or are already on exercise.
This is an acurate summary of why Putin undermines Ukraine as part of the old soviet that wants to be a western power
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/putin-ukraine-democracy/621465/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
And that narrative includes Russia good,US bad,right.
Nobody but US is bad in your narrative,or else you wont get trough the day.
The US will tell Germany what to do and Germany won't have a choice in the matter.
That's why they've already agreed.
It is quite obvious from the start of this tread that of are a complete troll spouting lies and propaganda so I don't read your posts and I will not read the responses you make to anything I write. Their are people here willing to discuss what Russia is doing what their motivation is, you are obviously here to cloud any attempt at a discussion with parroted lies.
Can you not read ????
Can I speak to a supervisor ?
It very well might be, but I don't remember USA being involved in the process, other than always saying it shouldn't be built. So it's not really anything Biden can decide on.
Those are the options that you can come up with? Are you serious?
Step back and take a look at the world. Better still take a look at where the most fertile, rich and populous part of the world is. Where ther biggest markets are the most extractable resources. And before you have a brain-belch...I am not talking about Russia. I am talking about Eurasia.
What can America do to provide for the people of Eurasia? Nothing. They are 4000k away from Ireland. Are we supposed to wait for these tits to sail LPG across the Ocean when it can be pumped in a few hours from Russia. America is finished. What can they do to provide for the people of Eurasia other than a few reality shows?
It is really a beautiful thing.
Macron goes to Russia. They don't even shake his hand. He comes away like a sap.
Not long ago these Western "statesmen" would not even talk to a Russian embassy secretary. BOJO was yammering about boycotting the Russian World Cup. And now they are eating humble pie...the bullsh1tters. I wonder now are the NATO troops that were deployed to Poland saying to themselves "stuck here now for 18 months for nothing!"
The US is expansionist as are the British, French, Germans, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese. That is a historical fact. If you don't like somebody building up a military to counter that then stop crying and saying that they are about to overrun you. You remind me of Israelis. They arm themselves to the teeth, slam into other lands and when someone throws a rock or a petrolbomb back they are terrorists. When someone blows a bunch of Merkava tanks to bits after they illegally invaded Lebanon then it's just not cricket, is it? How unfair!
MM.....this is Europe. You're over there now with your upcoming pension and cheap supplies at the PX. Maybe it's a game to you but Europeans still have a problem with war. Maybe it's because so much blood was spilled from the beauty of France all the way east to the beauty of the Urals for us not to think that it's a game. Go to Iraq, wreck the place and then leave the place in a heap of smouldering wreckage. Go to Afghanistan and then abandon all those there and run like a thief at night. And now you are an authority to spearhead another great American intervention?
I have no particular knowledge on the Pripet Marshes. They were a significant problem in WW2 (But not a total block), but we are now 2022. Frankly, I don't think they would be a major factor, even if the troops just drive around them. Units are much faster than they used to be.
Well, The New York Times stated that Russia had pulled out their consular staff from Kiev. The Russians looked at each other in bemusement and said "funny, all our staff are still in Kiev in the embassy". The Ukrainian attache and the foreign secretary came out and said "No..they haven't pulled out. What are you on about?"
So if Russia fakes an attack of sorts then it's plausible but if America does such then it's implausible?
Turkey entered the fray last year , even more so after they helped Azerbaijan reclaim territory from Armenia ...
The counter point to that could be the Russian have a view that they are already facing sanctions. Therefore they could hold that the short term impact of further sanctions is worth solidifying their holdings in Crimea and the Black Sea. Along with that, the current uncertainty is causing financial difficulties for Ukraine in securing investment and credit from banks. That serves to weaken Ukraine and perhaps bend the population towards compromise.
The EU presidency is a nonsense role and always has been. Europe has never had a coherent strategy or voice. Putin and China are acutely aware of this.
Macron is a self absorbed glory hunting moron all too happy to pretend to be the voice of Europe.
If the Russians have already invaded, then why are people excited about a possible Russian invasion? It's already happened by that logic. What's new?
Water shortages in Crimea is a plausible rationale for seizing control of the North Crimean Canal. But the costs - further sanctions, alienation of allies, potential political unrest affecting the regime, potential NATO intervention, potential NATO expansion, possible long running insurgency - far, far, far outweigh the benefit. The Crimean water supply has been a problem since 2014, but the Russians are investing hundreds of millions in reservoirs and water treatment and desalination plants ( a far safer solution), so it seems they made the decision against seizing the NCC already.
I find it bemusing that people are so deep into this stuff that even applying some common sense to a scenario is treated as heresy or blasphemy. Its like a cult or religion with some people.
Regime change in Kiev, preventing any further economic, military or political evolution of Ukraine which isn't in Putin's gangs interests. No EU membership and certainly no NATO membership. Which in turn serves to strengthen his grip on power in Russia itself, less that population get (more) notions above their station of stuffing the Putin mafia coffers. Also allows Putin withdraw from Donbass.
Iirc, you do, or used to drive tanks. Could I ask your view on armoured vehicles traversing the Pripet Marshes, which are I believe located Nother & North West of Kiev. I ask as this "frozen ground" phrase keeps popping up. It's a nonsense to think a modern army would be stopped by unfrozen regular ground but marshes are something more interesting. Could be, if there is to be Russian military action they may dispense with the nonsense and go for a political decapitation by attempting to take Kiev. Other forces arrayed around Ukraine's borders may spread out the Ukrainian army.
IMF, World Bank and UN statistics agency all have the South Korean economy (nominal $GDP) larger than the Russian one in 2020/2021 (latest data sets for all three). South Korea in the top 10 largest economies, Russia now outside it.
And, bear in mind this is nominal GDP with a relatively strong rouble due to gas prices, the picture would be a lot worse for Russia if the gas price troughs - which it will in time.
Correction. You can for a certain time... but the build-up leads to undesired results.
The Russians have already invaded, so your opening statement is inaccurate. The Russians don't need to hold the entire country. A more likely scenario is for them to secure access to the water sources for the Crimean peninsula, and possibly an expanded section of the coastline. A quick, destructive campaign to reduce Ukrainian capacity, along with punitive strikes against infrastructure could also be an objective.
The US calling out possible Russian misinformation efforts isn't an act of desperation, it's a deliberate effort to deny Russia's ability to craft the narrative. The Ukrainians have also been active disrupting likely Russian cells operating in the country. The playbook of 2014 is not going to be as successful 2nd time around.
For someone whose posts I've had a lot of respect for in the past, you've really gone deep into the conspiracy stuff in this thread.
Russia will learn you cannot store gas
Sorry comrade, its ecomony is bigger than south korea 13 and 14 respectively still only size of new york or half the UK
Biden saying Nord Stream 2 is dead if Russia invades Ukraine.
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