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Report claims Defence Forces Admit ”They Cannot Meaningfully Defend Ireland”

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https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/defence-forces-admit-they-cannot-meaningfully-defend-ireland-41292277.html?utm_source=newsshowcase&utm_medium=gnews&utm_campaign=CDAqDwgAKgcICjCx7J8JMMzIbzCPjzY&utm_content=rundown&gaa_at=la&gaa_n=AYc4ystak6sgYxGIIf3hcpktyAaEJetk-q36iFyPf_D5Xbp2onR_6gg9YPS2aLjDn4mfNohvXDiTpHikeK4YP9IcBzZYUq5-Xg%3D%3D&gaa_ts=61f71848&gaa_sig=PJnL1jGjppMQTMdKBZn7Wq_hP7fOYGq0UFFHvBad-W_ynzokWex_WWKMWqBrBNvzXBSTZnsREBnhR0AzGjJ2ww%3D%3D

if this report is correct some big changes due in the next while for the DF.

Not sure if this is just in response to the obvious questions people are asking in light of Russia’s crowding the Ukraine border & the EEZ war games or they really just felt like it was necessary.

i can’t pretend I wasn’t a little embarrassed to see the yanks having a laugh on the back of it but I can’t see a huge benefit to a massive overhaul. Some upgrades sure, I guess? But there’s hardly a need for things like renaming?

The report will also recommend renaming the Irish Air Corps the Irish Air Force and the Irish Naval Service the Irish Navy, while the Army Ranger Wing would be renamed Ireland’s Special Operations Force or IRL-SOF.

Granted renaming the Army Rangers I think is fair cos it does make them sound like a bit of a non totally serious group when in fact they are specially trained soldiers.

Overall not sure how I feel about this especially seeing as part of the changes proposed would mean we’re doing less peace keeping in an effort to “effectively defend the state”. We’re not under threat from anyone at present.. so what’s the point?

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Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118557264#Comment_118557264

There is an interesting online report by tradingeconomics.com called Military Expenditures - Europe - by Country. Updated February 3, 2022.

Ireland is not at the bottom of military spending, with several nations below. Of course spending is not the silver bullet of defense. Only one variable.

In comparison, USA dwarfs all others on the planet in military spending. And America has been friendly to Ireland for decades. And although Ireland is technically a neutral nation, it has had a lengthy understanding with USA regarding the refueling of military aircraft at Shannon. Plus millions of Irish have immigrated to USA over more than the last hundred years. If Ireland were attacked, I have no doubts about USA coming strongly to its defense.

One idea. Switzerland has a civilian army. In Asia South Korea has one too. All males are trained to defend their nation. Such training may have been one of several reasons why Germany did not invade Switzerland during WW2. Perhaps a strategic cost benefit model made it not worth an invasion by Germany? Wonders if this kind of universal citizen training would also discourage a potential invader of Ireland? And if you wanted and could afford it, in addition to military training for all males, you could also include all women.

Gatling

There getting worse

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118575171#Comment_118575171

Universal citizen training ala national service. There are arguments for and against.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118575192#Comment_118575192

Israel has national military training for all citizens, including men and women. Norway and Sweden do too.

In America. Currently they only have volunteer military. But all males must register for the selective service at 18, just in case of a major war occurred and the draft was implemented. Women are not required to register.

Anecdotally speaking. I have no military training. I am tall and athletic. But probably couldn’t beat my way out of a paper sack. But no one in their right mind would attack our home. My housemate has trained and was an instructor for years in MA. She would give a home invader a serious lesson I would imagine.

BirgerH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118575171#Comment_118575171

Reservist civilian army only works, if you have the air support and other modern weapons for it. Israel and Switzerland both have the most modern weapons money can buy. Otherwise everyone just dies under modern weapons. First you need to fix your military and then reservist force comes after that. No use to have 100 000 civilians in arms, if they don't have the missiles to defend against ships, jets, helicopters and artillery. Watch "Taistelukenttä 2020" with english subtitles in youtube to know how large modern reservist army responds to similar attack then is the scenario in Ireland.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118575376#Comment_118575376

None of which is necessary true ,

You don't need missles to defend against aircraft or helicopters ,

Just like anyone can claim to be a member of a foreign military or similar

The finns did it quite well during the war with Russia ........

Podge_irl

No one doubts our readiness to stop Russian invasion even we have over 1000km land border with them. In fact we are the only country in world to have stopped Soviet Union invasion (Winter War).

Tell that to the residents of Viipuri. The Winter War was certainly a rude awakening for the Soviet Union, but to all intents and purposes Finland lost.

Finland borders Russia and is in in an entirely different defence situation from Ireland. It's also not exactly that surprising that it has a better arctic navy than the US considering it is in the Arctic and the US is not. Ireland could have a much stronger defence force, but the question remains as to what we actually want our DF to be able to do. I don't think having battle tanks makes much sense.

BirgerH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118576789#Comment_118576789

My grandfather lost his home, when Viipuri was lost. That was because before 1939 most politicians in Finland didn't believe that the Soviets would attack to Finland. That is why our defence budget was a way too small before the winter war. The same mistake Ireland is doing right now. In that youtube video Taistelukenttä 2020, there you can see, how Ireland can be taken under complete foreign control in just a couple of days and how you can stop that. Please do not make the same mistakes we did before winter war. I have lived in Cork and you have beautiful country there. Better to keep it so.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118576789#Comment_118576789

They retained their independence! we need to make it not worth any powers while to invade that's all. We aren't there until we have some interceptors, improved ship capability a radar and missile system. A serious Territorial Army on standby and some tanks suitable for our hills and bogs (like the Swedish S tank?)

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118576867#Comment_118576867

Thank you. Cork could be invaded and then the rest of the country.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118577044#Comment_118577044

If they arrive when it rains it would be really easy especially in cork

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118576878#Comment_118576878

Its already not worth anyone's while to invade Ireland given the absolute global shitstorm it would cause. Ireland having a few interceptors and a couple ships is going to make absolutely zero difference to the equation. If a country is powerful enough to invade Ireland and not have to worry about the international consequences we are going to lose.

The Winter War equivalent would be the UK invading Ireland. Our overwhelmingly better option for preventing that (vanishingly small) possibility is diplomatic because we would never succeed militarily.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118577315#Comment_118577315

I agree that a few interceptors and a few more capable ships wouldn't be able to stop a serious invasion but it would be a tripwire and a challange to the agressor at the start and show that we mean business. When they are gone our main aim would be to create an ongoing guerilla war with mobile units to make it impossible to stay in the country. Diplomacy alone is limited if there is little to back it up.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118577315#Comment_118577315

There is still the point of resistance even if the odds are great, the IRA didn't have much chance of forcing British withdrawal anytime soon (apart from the early 70s) yet people from all over Ireland were literally queuing up to join them, the IRA had so much people willing to join that the vast majority of them had to be turned away.

Prior to 1998 Northern Ireland was disputed territory claimed by both the UK and the Republic, part of our country was occupied up until 1998 when we officially recognised the legitimacy of Northern Ireland.

jackboy

If we were ever invaded it would only be by a major power. We could never possibly spend enough money to defend against such an attack. What good would a small amount of top class soldiers do when thousands of civilians are being exterminated. Unless someone nice invades us and only focuses on the military.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588216#Comment_118588216

If an invasion happened they don't necessarily have to kill thousands of civilians, that would be counter productive, the best option would be to occupy us with minimal force as that would be the best way to keep resistance to a minimum and make the occupation as easy as possible.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588216#Comment_118588216

Don't knock a small well trained and equipped military , just ask the Russians about Finland , they don't like discussing that ,of the afghans who also fought the Russians despite massacres , indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations and infrastructures and chemical weapons attacks .. Chechnya is another prime example of a relative small number of fighters holding off pretty much the Russians for several years ,

History is scattered with cautionary tales of mighty armies getting felled by less equipped and trained fighters

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588233#Comment_118588233

Of course, unless we resisted. Then it is easier to just slaughter civilians until the military surrenders. This is how the modern powers have conducted wars. Of course not productive in the long term but a disaster during the invasion.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588238#Comment_118588238

That's because they are talking about a conventional army with fighter jets and tanks etc. If an invasion happened we would have to restructure into an underground guerilla army. Fighter jets and other conventional means of defense would be pointless.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588238#Comment_118588238

What’s wrong with having your cake and eating it?

Despite the viscous rumours, it is possible.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588267#Comment_118588267

When It comes to Russia they bomb everything back to the Stoneage , targeting primarily civilian infrastructures and population centers and use chemical weapons to subdue who's ever left into not standing up to them

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588258#Comment_118588258

True, what I'm saying though is that people are talking about building up a large scale conventional army with fighter jets and other means of conventional warfare, which would be useless if an invasion happened by someone like Russia.

We would have to restructure into an underground guerilla army, we would have no control over our skies so all this talk about buying fighter jets to defend ourselves against an invasion is nonsense.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588375#Comment_118588375

Nonsense, even if we did start spending extravagant amounts of money on building up our defence forces for the next few decades we would still be one of the easiest nations in the west to invade.

The only nations who would realistically invade us are extremely powerful and our mediocre defenses would offer no deterrent if they wanted to invade.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588375#Comment_118588375

Because of our location, realistically we would only be invaded as part of a wider war to gain access to ports and airfields. If that happened we would be up against a major power in desperate times. Any resistance would be met with vast slaughter of civilians, they would have no time for a protracted conflict. Also, they wouldn’t actually want the bulk of the country so they wouldn’t try to occupy every village or chase the army around the Kerry hills.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588406#Comment_118588406

Making it not worth it for them in the end would be a deterrent.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588490#Comment_118588490

Any conventional means of defense using fighter jets etc though would be pointless, although we could organise large scale resistance.

The British ministry of defense claimed in 1972 that re taking IRA controlled territory in Northern Ireland during operation motorman would result in the death/injury of 5000 soldiers. Although the IRA decided not to fight back during the operation and they simply gave up the territory believing the IRA would have been completely defeated if they had tried to defend the territory.

So using that as an example in terms of a civilian army fighting against a large sophisticated army you can work out your own scenario on what would happen if we tried to hold out.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118591502#Comment_118591502

Organized resistance would happen in any case. The point of an airforce/navy would be to show a national defiance of a takeover and as a tripwire in the even of a large scale invasion.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118588465#Comment_118588465

In that case the opposing power would be on our side and the kerry hills would send out bands to make trouble for them.

Manic Moran

Here's the report, released today.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/YR2FHLEUP3SU/215358-a21b9438-45a6-4c26-a508-c0d1aeeeb336.pdf

thechigger

Oh great, now EVERYONE knows we're a sitting duck. Great going guys, I'm off to start learning chinese