Good to see McLoughlin getting some recognition. He’s been consistently one of our best players now for a long time. Sounds like the mood is good in the squad.
I’m actually interested in hearing your answer to the question also….
Two page spread interview with the man of the moment on this thread McLoughlin in the Irish News today, must be due to his new profile as Cavan’s star forward! 😂
Irish News verdict is don’t write Cavan off in Ulster.
Kiernan & McLoughlin are half backs. Are you now arguing that after several posts? Others have immediately pointed it out and you didn’t argue it then?
You ask what I want - I want you to directly name the games (I did say ''can you name the specific games where Jason McLoughlin spent long periods as a half forward last year?''), out of the 2.5 games he played last year, where he played for long periods as a half forward? I wouldn’t have thought it’s that hard a question, as I have actually outlined for you the games he played in but I’ve now had to ask the question for a 4th time.
I do believe the term “idiot” was used in your posts so perhaps you’ll understand why I can’t “join the dots”. My memory of player positioning also isn’t good considering 1.5 of the games McLoughlin played in last year I watched via a terrible stream with internet issues - if you want to have another trawl through my previous posts, I do believe I mentioned that at the time. You do like rereading them to post and back up points I readily admit to. Not sure of the supposed impact of that but it does give you something to do for your spare time I suppose.
I also did ask where your opinion came from that Martin Reilly was a defender pushed into the forward line at county level? And asked if you remembered the 2009 season when he started on the county team as a corner forward taking frees? You seem to have ignored all of those queries.
I don’t think I did confidently say it. I initially posted it as a question and also used words like “seems”. Not sure where you see that language as being “confident” on a point. As I said, I’ve never claimed to be an expert on junior football.
You asked a question, I answered it directly, which is more than I’m getting from your responses (more on that in a minute). If you want me to go into further detail, which I didn’t think would be be necessary to be honest, but then some people do like to be pedantic, I’d expect one of Kiernan or Smith to start half forward with the other being a half back. In relation to Caoimhin or Cormac Reilly, I’d be happy with either/or starting so named both. If you want me to cut it to six exactly, I’d say start Smith & Cormac in the forwards. Cormac gave a better performance in his McKenna Cup appearance than Caoimhin and, as another poster said, Smith has regularly started in the forwards for Lavey.
What I certainly wouldn’t want, and as plenty of other posters have supported, is Cavan starting two recognised half backs in their half forward line in Division 4, particularly when one is 30 or so and has, what, one intercounty point to his name!? I’m surprised you’re still trying to peddle the idea given the amount of criticism it has received.
You point to a list of players that were allegedly pushed into the full forward line and mention Martin Reilly - do you not remember 2009 where Martin was a starting forward on frees on frees? His debut season? Martin has actually moved down the pitch to move back up it.
The other players also were attack minded players who were young when they made the change. McLoughlin is 30 or over.
And, again, I’ll ask for a direct answer if it isn’t too much trouble, can you name the specific games where Jason McLoughlin spent long periods as a half forward last year? Cavan only played five competitive games last year and he only played in two and a half of them so I don’t see why I’m asking a third time now.
Where have I previously based my opinion on others? Again, I don't watch junior games. You do because you support a junior club but I don't see why anyone who didn't support a junior team, or had a link to them, would travel to watch a junior game when there are two superior grades. Perhaps I'd go to watch Drumlane and Knockbride, two teams with good and up and coming squads, playing but I wouldn't have an interest in watching many other junior clubs to be honest.
My memory of games may quite possibly be poor but could you answer the question? You said ''McLoughlin has been playing long periods at half forward for Cavan in the past 12 months''. You've given a long response there but failed to answer my query - ''So, he played 2 and a half games out of 5 competitive fixtures and I don't remember any long period where he was a half forward? Perhaps you could enlighten me?''. I await your response outlining the long periods where Mcloughlin played half forward. The McKenna Cup game was one game in the last 12 months. I had actually not included it as I was referring to last season and it was so recent.
In regard to a front 6, I think McKiernan and Oisin Brady, based on what he's shown to date, are two definites. Unfortunately for Martin Reilly, I would reduce his presence to being an impact sub, and even then only when needed in Division 4 football.
My starting six for Leitrim would be:
Smith/Kiernan, McKiernan, O. Brady
Conor Smith (if fit), Patrick Lynch, Cormac O'Reilly/Caoimhin Reilly
Mickey will know who is going well in training but it's forwards I'd be starting.
I've watched a fair bit of intermediate and junior football over the last few years and I've never seen anyone putting half backs into the half forward line. In fact, it is more likely at county level that you will see players shoehorned into other positions as opposed to club level and there is a very obvious reason for that.
McLoughlin, Faulkner, Gerry Smith, Gearoid (until recently), Conor Brady, the Gunner, Clarke, Thomas Galligan, James Smith and the Holla all are stars at club level and all mostly play at midfield. 10 into 2 doesn't go. Like other counties, Cavan have moved towards picking the best (and often most athletic) footballers into their panels and where necessary re-deploying them. Our keeper is an All Star and has been one of our most consistent players for years, yet he lines out as a full forward at club level.
There is an appreciable difference in levels between the grades (although i would say the gap between intermediate and junior is smaller than it was), there are clearly top class players in each grade. The differences these days relate to depth of panel and often the starting 15. In the current panel, the following people will not be playing senior football and would 100% start for me (if fit): McLoughlin, Moynagh, Clarke, Kiernan and the Holla. Plenty on the panel have played most of their football outside of senior. Our best player for the last decade has only played two seasons at Senior.
Bit of a waste of time trapsing through my previous posts to find something I fully admit to but I hope you enjoyed reading them all again.
I don't watch much junior football I fully admit. Unless someone supports a club, or has a link to it, why would they attend a junior game when there are two superior grades? Junior football however wouldn't be known for its free flowing, attacking football, would you not agree? It's generally known around the country for negative tactics like putting two half backs in your half forward line.
In regard to watching football. I watched every Cavan game last year, albeit generally via a poor quality stream which isn't the same as being at the game. McLoughlin came on against Fermanagh for a half hour. I don't even remember where he played. Against Longford he was a half back to my memory. He didn't play at all against Derry or Wicklow. Against Tyrone he was named a half back and played there again to my memory - although I do my best to forget that game and it's one of few Cavan championship games I have never rewatched. So, he played 2 and a half games out of 5 competitive fixtures and I don't remember any long period where he was a half forward? Perhaps you could enlighten me, particularly given there was no McKenna Cup, the League was only half the games it would normally (even with a relegation game included) be and we had one championship game with no qualifiers.
I think the other posters below your post have backed up my point - youth needs to be given a chance. There's little point moving forward without developing forwards. We're at the bottom now, and hopefully we'll rise, but there's no point going back up through divisions when we are aware that our two best forwards are about 32 and 35. Or, for that matter, playing a 30 or 31 year old half back in our half forward line against the worst teams we can play in the country.
Coaching is about developing players and that's what Mickey and his panel of coaches need to do, but they need to keep those lads interested and give them game time. Its no point sitting and saying
Its a problem with every club, I'd imagine ur right regarding players pulling out of County. PS:it's not confined to players either! and I don't mean supporters
Not sure on Timoney. Looked like one for the future but he had a few off performances too I seem to remember. Suppose inconsistency at that age is expected.
A fully fit Moynagh definitely is badly needed especially with Holla out. It would be nice to see some progression from some of the youngsters too. Could be the 3/4th season for some of them so youngster tag will be wearing thin soon.
Talking to a fella today who reckons cocaine is a real issue in a few clubs in the county. Apparently he said that a few players have left clubs and one fella out of the county at all because they where sick of seeing their team mates off their heads... Don't know how true it is but he named names and it makes sense.... I'd wonder is there player not declaring for the county due to increased drug testing ?
The annual talk of “i hope 35 year old Martin Reilly is fit and healthy to save us yet again” tells us exactly how strong our squad is.
There are a fair few players especially in the forwards who have been on the panel for a couple of years now that need to get their fingers out and step up this year.
We'll know better after 5 games or so if last year was an anomaly or a continuation of the trend we've seen in league over the last few years. But I'm not buying into "no stock put into league". Last year the minimum expectation from any Cavan fan was promotion and a league title. People came out with that other nonsense after our horse had bolted. And after our drop from Division 1 I seem to remember getting back up there as quickly as possible being the aim.
Any serious team needs to be in Division 2 minimum. One poster even put up a few posts back what it means money wise. Professional setups need money. If our squad is as strong as we hope and our management are as good as credited, a few injuries or luck of the draw shouldn't matter for avoiding the basement.
As i said, I think Conor Moynagh was our most consistent performer in 2019 across league and championship. And I am one of his biggest fans. Because he's not a "blood and thunder" old school defender, he gets undue stick. And given that he's a cultured player some fans are suspicious of him looking to spray a pass as opposed to "letting it in to feck" to the big man ☺️
Two things:
But like i said, we have lots of options at half back which is great to have that strength and depth. One name I haven't seen mentioned is Cormac Timoney. Played a few league games in 2020 and played (and scored) against Antrim in the championship and one that most of us thought was a cert for the half back line for years to come. Is he still in on the panel?
I don't think we can underestimate a few things about last year. They aren't attempts at excuses (see below) but a statement of facts (some of which have greater significance)/
In the three league games I actually don't think we were that poor or tactically off the pace (i don't remember us being more defensive and blooded three young forwards). I think it was all down to lack of intensity and game time. We looked so leggy against Fermanagh but again let's not underestimate injuries and Covid impacting on training.
We definitely look way more up for the league based on our approach in the McKenna cup which bodes well for Sunday week.
I'd agree with needing to take risks and develop some forwards this campaign and a better attacking system. That's the thing that was so disappointing about last year. We were very conservative/defensive and risk adverse in how we setup but still got relegated. It was almost like we were setup to play Donegal again without the intensity.
When TH got us out of Division 3 he took this approach and got lambasted both locally and nationally, mainly because we did it so well. Won every game and conceded 1 goal. But players knew their roles and where the performance bar was set.
Below par performances and going through the motions have become tolerated unfortunately. I don't know if that because the panel has become so weak or the management are operating from a very closed shop but I'll feel a lot better if I see us hit the ground running this campaign, see some of the fire back and try build up some big score lines.
Forwards wise, we've obviously had some issues for a while. We converted two players into amazing forwards (Givney and McVeety) for both to leave the panel. Dunne and Keating stepped away too early and Johnston and Mackey have retired. In the last few years we've tried god knows how many lads but very few have been given a chance. In fairness to Mickey, he's identified that as an issue and has looked to blood new young forwards who could become long term fixtures in the team. In an ideal situation he would have the luxury of trying one or two lads with 4 experienced forwards around them.
We have two nailed on forwards (Martin and Gearoid) if fit who actually play their best football as forwards. There are lads who have shown glimpses of the potential at inter county level: Conor Smith, Oisin Pierson, Conor Madden, Caoimhin O'Reilly. And there are lads who have shown their value at club level and have had small inter county cameos: Oisin Brady, TED, Caoimhin McGovern,Patrick Lynch, Cormac O'Reilly.
And there are a few lads new to the panel in Paul Smith, Cian Madden and McKenna who could have an impact but might be a bit too soon in terms of their development.
I know division four will be no gimmee, but surely we need to start playing the likes of Oisin Brady, Lynch and O'Reilly. Forwards with potential that need game time to see if they can develop and progress and step up from club to county. We can't continually moan that we have no forwards good enough if we don't get them on the field, get game time into them and see if they can make it. And we need to do that over a series of games as opposed to a few minutes here and there. With no disrespect to Division 4 teams, if we don't trust young forwards to develop in those games, are we seriously suggesting throwing them into an Ulster championship?
Bar Stephen Smith and maybe Luke Fortune, that seems to be a fairly injury prone set of lads.
I'd just see it as a junior football tactic - blanket defence, fill your attack with defenders. Being from West Cavan, I wasn't sure if you'd get the opportunity to watch much senior football live. I think the game has moved past negative tactics. The big thing now is counter attacking football and quick transition, at senior football and intercounty level anyway.
I think McLoughlin was generally being used a as half forward to man mark the likes of a Ryan McHugh or an attacking half back on the opposite team. You'll only get that against better teams though and I can't see it being much of an issue in Division 4.
I wouldn't write off the rest of the front 6 yet. Give them some playing time in Division 4 to try and find their rhythm at intercounty level. As another posted has pointed out, those two lads won't be around forever so we need some of the pretenders to start standing up. It's a bit rough to label some lads that they ''aren't up to the standard'' before they even get a decent run.
The worrying thing is both Gearoid and Martin are possibly in their last year(s).
Yes he is well able to kick scores from long range for his club anyway. Should he be in the half forwards no.
Is this tactic of filling our half forward line with half backs, when we're going to be playing in Division 4, not a bit of a junior football thing? It's a tactic I would expect our opponents to be deploying against us. Division 4 is probably going to see plenty of blanket defences so why would we go into the games with the likes of Jason McLoughin and Conor Brady half forward? Is Jaosn going to kick a long range score to beat a blanket?
They were due to play Down on Tuesday evening and it was cancelled. I was told no further games planned but since the Terry Hyland era our players keep their cards close to their chest.
Moynagh has been a great servant. By no means perfect and it can be easy to focus on the negatives where familiarity is concerned but overall I'd say he's been above average for us. In a similar way some people tend to highlight the weaknesses in McKiernan's game but when he is gone he will leave a massive void.
It would be great to think that some of the potential replacements are upgrades on what we have/had but as yet they haven't stepped up. Club form however promising doesn't mean much if you can't bring it through to IC. So jury still out. Put it this way, when we were flying up through the divisions and competing with the top teams in the country Conor Moynagh's name was one of the first on the tam sheet. We're now debating if some of these other lads should be even starting on a Division 4 team.
I think Conor Moynagh is an excellent footballer, but in his best roll as a sweeper not as a centre back or on out and out defender marking anyone.
have we not seen Moynagh solo into traffic and turn the ball over enough of times ? No doubting he is a talented footballer but he can be completely brainless
David Brady was on that team also
Conor Smith
Pierce Smith
Stephen Smith
Luke Fortune
Thomas Galligan
Darragh Kennedy (some years ago)
Mattie McKenna
Thomas Edward Donohoe
Fergal O Rourke may have skirted the panel for a while, not sure
That's a good point re Thomas Galligan. All of us are naming him but is he even fit? At this stage, I'm beginning to think he has as many fitness issues as Conor Smith for Cavan but his good year in 2020 sees those glossed over. He even argues he wasn't fit that year.
Has anyone a list of the players played for St Pats on their McCrory Cup winning team and for Cavan too? I think Smith & Galligan were both on that team.
I would pick Brady over Conroy or Moynagh based on form in the championship. Chris Conroy is a very reliable player for Cavan but by his standards had a very poor championship for Lavey. I saw Moynagh in an intermediate championship game for Drumgoon and he was easily the best player on show, but nothing to the level Brady performed at for Gowna.
Like I said, we have options there (Clarke had one of his best performances for Cavan against Armagh in the 2019 Ulster semi replay at centre half) and we are lighter on proven options up front.
I wonder whether we might see Clarke or the Gunner at midfield to partner James Smith. We don't know if Thomas Galligan is fully fit and even if both Smith and Galligan are fit, you might see one kept in reserve and a more defensive partner in the middle to balance the natural style of Smith and Galligan to drive forward. I would love to see both of them fit and start and become the dominant centre midfield pairing for years to come.
